A hand that has been bugging me... opinions?

[evilpie]

i hear wat your saying but persoally i like 2 c the flop a dont like playing coin flips

no one likes to play coin flips but they are impossible to avoid if you want to win a donkament.

You cant be folding jacks to an allin just because you want to avoid the flip. As I put before, he will do this with pairs TT or worse and possibly AJ or worse as well as the coinflip hands.

Erm.......

I do.

[bigalhx3]

NEVER call a all in online unless you have 5/2

[Joker161]

Reading all this makes me think I made a massive mistake at the APAT last week.

I"m in the BB with JJ and about 30k. Blinds are 400/800 with a 50 ante. It"s folded to the button who pushes for 8k. He has played about 4 hands in 6 hours! The SB is a bit loose, has about 25k and gives it some chat before calling. I decide before the SB calls that I will call in the SB folds but fold if he calls (very odd looking back now). He calls and I fold face up, and the SB can"t believe it. My view was that I"d be up against at least 2 over cards, maybe three, and/or an overpair, so I didn"t want to risk a third of my stack. I probably should have gone all-in and isolated the button.

Anyway, the button had 44 and the SB had AT. First card on the flop was an ace (phew, lucky escape!) and the 2nd was a jack (f*ck). I not overly bothered about the fold, but it does niggle. I probably did the wrong thing.

Views?

[deanp27]

my view is that is a terrible fold - sorry

put yourself in their position and assess their ranges

[George2Loose]

Reading all this makes me think I made a massive mistake at the APAT last week.

I"m in the BB with JJ and about 30k. Blinds are 400/800 with a 50 ante. It"s folded to the button who pushes for 8k. He has played about 4 hands in 6 hours! The SB is a bit loose, has about 25k and gives it some chat before calling. I decide before the SB calls that I will call in the SB folds but fold if he calls (very odd looking back now). He calls and I fold face up, and the SB can"t believe it. My view was that I"d be up against at least 2 over cards, maybe three, and/or an overpair, so I didn"t want to risk a third of my stack. I probably should have gone all-in and isolated the button.

Anyway, the button had 44 and the SB had AT. First card on the flop was an ace (phew, lucky escape!) and the 2nd was a jack (f*ck). I not overly bothered about the fold, but it does niggle. I probably did the wrong thing.

Views?

This is a situation where even if both players are beating you, your money should be in the pot

[kinboshi]

...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up.  It just compounds the error.

[Jon MW]

...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up.  It just compounds the error.

Yes, if you"re going to make a mistake - don"t let anyone know about it at the time

The SB didn"t reraise to try and get heads up with the all in - so AK, AQ, QQ, KK and aces are probably less likely I would have thought.

He might still have flatted with them - but I would have thought the odds were you were against 2 underpairs, or a hand like he had.

[Roscopiko]

my view is that is a terrible fold - sorry

put yourself in their position and assess their ranges

...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up.  It just compounds the error.

Yes, if you"re going to make a mistake - don"t let anyone know about it at the time

The SB didn"t reraise to try and get heads up with the all in - so AK, AQ, QQ, KK and aces are probably less likely I would have thought.

He might still have flatted with them - but I would have thought the odds were you were against 2 underpairs, or a hand like he had.

Wow you"d think he folded AA here from those responses.  Dont think you can call this a terrible play at all.  Its not what i personally would have done but I can see some merits for folding if you can win chips easily from position rather than potentially giving away half your stack when the SB flats with a monster.

[kinboshi]

my view is that is a terrible fold - sorry

put yourself in their position and assess their ranges

...and certainly don"t fold your cards face up.  It just compounds the error.

Yes, if you"re going to make a mistake - don"t let anyone know about it at the time

The SB didn"t reraise to try and get heads up with the all in - so AK, AQ, QQ, KK and aces are probably less likely I would have thought.

He might still have flatted with them - but I would have thought the odds were you were against 2 underpairs, or a hand like he had.

Wow you"d think he folded AA here from those responses.  Dont think you can call this a terrible play at all.  Its not what i personally would have done but I can see some merits for folding if you can win chips easily from position rather than potentially giving away half your stack when the SB flats with a monster.

Still, don"t show your lay-down.

[Roscopiko]

Still, don"t show your lay-down.

Agreed

[Joker161]

I think you have all confirmed what I already knew - poor fold. Still, I lost no chips and still went on to the 2nd day where my AQ ran into KK. Mathematically I should have called, but putting a third of your chips in when you are probably less than 50% is a bit of a gamble when there"s lots of play in the tournament.

Thanks everyone!

[WYoung83]

joker, you need to understand a few things such as "utility". if you fold and still make day 2, so what, your aim is to make the final table, and to do this you need to take risks to get chips. if you are not willing to gamble, then tourneys are not for you.

This is a situation, when if the opponent has a bigger pair, then so be it, and they would of isolated the other guy anyway, so your jacks are good.

[bagface]

My wife was watching and questioned the call.....

This confirms its a call

[RiverAsUsual]

Of the 3 options fold, call or reraise (all-in), the worst is CALL.

I"d be 50/50 on the other 2 options depending on my best read of the other players, especially the sb. An all-in may make him fold (almost defo in THIS situation) and you don"t mind a race against 1 player!  

[Joker161]

I think you"re right. The other players on the table reckoned they would have gone all-in, and the SB said he would have folded. Ironically, the worst play, just calling, would have won the most chips because the flop had an ace as well as the jack, and so all the chiips would have gone in.