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TopPair2Pair · « **on:** September 03, 2009, 00:23:08 AM »

Blinds are 50/100, I have AKo and raise to 350 late position, everyone folds but BB. I have about 4.7K he has just over 5K. His clearly new to playing poker in a live environment, dealing errors, chip handling errors, constantly looking at ppl like wtf do i do now when dealing. Not a complete fish though, must"ve played quite a bit online.

Anyway flop comes.... JT8 2tone and he donks 400...

...........?

MintTrav · « **Reply #1 on:** September 03, 2009, 01:31:02 AM »

I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.

TopPair2Pair · « **Reply #2 on:** September 03, 2009, 01:52:12 AM »

Quote from: MintTrav on September 03, 2009, 01:31:02 AM

I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.

so your folding?

MintTrav · « **Reply #3 on:** September 03, 2009, 02:36:36 AM »

Quote from: Toppietwo on September 03, 2009, 01:52:12 AM

Quote from: MintTrav on September 03, 2009, 01:31:02 AM

I can"t see the conundrum. Apart from AQ, it"s difficult to name a hand that he might have called with that you"re not losing to.

so your folding?

There may be occasions, against a tricky player, that I would decide not to fold for a particular reason. For example, we may suspect that he is leading in the expectation that we have missed the flop. Against a straightforward new player, however, we"ve got to assume that he is almost certainly ahead or, at a minimum, his draws are better than ours and our hand is better folded sooner rather than later.

LongshanksED · « **Reply #4 on:** September 03, 2009, 08:37:52 AM »

With decent stacks i"ve recently started what hellmuth advocates.

You could try raisng to see where you are. essentially it is a bluff but also gives you good informtion. if he has a small under pair to the board then he could fold. If he calls or raises your beat and time to get out. But this only really works in the right situation.

Personly I think your behind to either 2 pair or AJ or similar but if you min raised to 800 or 1000 you might win the hand outright. It it doesn"t you still have 40BB

Marty719 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:03:09 AM »

Raise less pre imo, make it 250/275. Flop is 100% player dependant. Don"t think Im raising here as he can 3-bet ship w/ a lot of hands inc dry 9"s and KQ. One major factor w/ Holdem atm is ppl play the flop pretty well at times, but seem to b lost on the turn. I prob flat his flop bet. If he checks the turn then we bet ~900ish.

If he seems like a player that cannot give up 1pair type hands then we fold flop. If we have seen him fire multiple bullets, then we fold.

If it was me, Id just spike the Q on the turn wen he bet flop w/ 9x, but most ppl dnt run tht good

lukybugur · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:15:47 AM »

So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.

By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.

Waz1892 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:19:05 AM »

as you say he is new to live poker by your read on him...so i feel a re-raise of say 1200-1600 more would get you in more trouble, as he"d prob call if he has 10 or jack, as he"d prob only be looking at his own cards.

So fold, however its tricky, as you could call, which may slow him down on the turn. and you may hit your a or k, and slow play it on the turn and river.

not much help actually!

Jon MW · « **Reply #8 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:25:18 AM »

Quote from: lukybugur on September 03, 2009, 09:15:47 AM

So he bets 400 into a 700 pot? Standard IMO. Your choices are to float him by calling (what I would do) or fold here as you only have 10 cards to hit which MIGHT make you the best hand.

By floating him here with a decent stack behind, you"ll be able to re-assess after you see what he does on the turn.

More or less this I think.

I"d raise less pre, flat this bet - pounce on any weakness on the turn.

Although I did do that online yesterday with 77 on a QQ52 board
I"m pretty sure the table were really impressed with my play when the average stack I"d set all in turned over Q2

lukybugur · « **Reply #9 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:39:57 AM »

It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc. which he"s obv going to call / 4 bet / shove all day long.

I think your PFR amount is fine - when folk say "I"d raise less" I can"t see them making it any less than 300 as it almost prices the BB to call with any two cards.

I wouldn"t re-raise as I don"t have a made hand on flop, I would float him and see what card comes / how he acts on the Turn. The ONLY way to play it IMO.

Marty719 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 03, 2009, 09:49:57 AM »

Quote from: lukybugur on September 03, 2009, 09:39:57 AM

It"s wise, and dare I say it "fashionable", for him to lead into you (the PFRaiser) with a strong hand like JJ, TT or JT here. It"s done to try to entice you to re-raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ etc. which he"s obv going to call / 4 bet / shove all day long.

I think your PFR amount is fine - when folk say "I"d raise less" I can"t see them making it any less than 300 as it almost prices the BB to call with any two cards.

I wouldn"t re-raise as I don"t have a made hand on flop, I would float him and see what card comes / how he acts on the Turn. The ONLY way to play it IMO.

I def raise less here and am happy if the BB is gng to call w/ atc. It means I get to play a swollen pot in position w/ the best hand and deep stacks. I very rarely make it 3x in tournaments when I am in position as I think the same goal can be achieved for less. When we r raising w/ AK at the 50/100 level, we r not just hoping to pick up the blinds most of the time.

kinboshi · « **Reply #11 on:** September 03, 2009, 10:57:45 AM »

Raise less pre, and flat the flop bet as Neil said.

Then when he leads out on the turn, fold.

TopPair2Pair · « **Reply #12 on:** September 03, 2009, 13:18:54 PM »

Cheers guys, point noted about raising less. I like teh varying opinions, (Standard APAT class!) I had a couple strong regs inbetween myself and caller that i"d never played with before, does this change anyone"s opinion on pre raise amount?

Marty719 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2009, 13:23:47 PM »

Quote from: Toppietwo on September 03, 2009, 13:18:54 PM

Cheers guys, point noted about raising less. I like teh varying opinions, (Standard APAT class!) I had a couple strong regs inbetween myself and caller that i"d never played with before, does this change anyone"s opinion on pre raise amount?

strong regs how? do they 3 bet a lot? What was ur image at the time of this hand? Where about in late position are u?

deanp27 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2009, 13:27:26 PM »

raise whatever your standard amount is but i think at 50/100 then 300 is fine.

as played i think i float and see what he does, many lolbad live players get their bet sizing wrong so he could make a mistake on the turn, potentially all 3 broadway cards for you are outs.

he"s probably betting "to see where he is" with middle pair or something so a call should slow him down, but i think raising as a bluff with your hand here is the worst possible option.