IPO day 2 misplayed hand - views welcome

[Marty719]

The only line i disagree with is the one marty actually played [sry marty ]

lol - not a problem - the reason I posted the hand up was bcos I disagreed with my line here cheers for the input.

[deanp27]

not sure you get called 17bb shoves with weaker aces than AQ. Your hand looks like a hand too strong to pass but vulnerable. Therefore a good hand but not total premium. Exactly what your hand is.

I had this discussion in another thread somewhere and agree it is close and is a perfectly valid play.

just can"t see AJ snapping you off here, but then again i give opponents too much credit sometimes.

i just go for the win when i play and i try the higher risk maneouvre of trying to get some aggro guy to resteal on me with worse.

[JamieCarra]

Great post Noble,and for once there is someone here who seems to know what they are talking about.
I still cant belive the ammount of players who think shoving pre is bad. Once you have raised the hand enough to not give the BB odds to call, you are now pot commited. So you may aswell be the first in vigourish anyway.

lol 17bbshoveaments

do you really think the most important thing in the BBs head is going to be the price he"s getting when he"s got a stack in the region of 20 - 25 BBs?  Give him the price to call if he wants, he"s more than welcome to come along oop with his rags.

[noble1]

not sure you get called 17bb shoves with weaker aces than AQ. Your hand looks like a hand too strong to pass but vulnerable. Therefore a good hand but not total premium. Exactly what your hand is.

I had this discussion in another thread somewhere and agree it is close and is a perfectly valid play.

just can"t see AJ snapping you off here, but then again i give opponents too much credit sometimes.

i just go for the win when i play and i try the higher risk maneouvre of trying to get some aggro guy to resteal on me with worse.

i used to give to much credit as well,but after adding this into my game at low as well as high buy in tournys then i have seen quite a wide range call in similar situations with 22+ Ax it was sooooooted A9o+ KQs KJs and very occasionally even worse..
if we were in the bb then if marty were to std raise it seems a good spot to stop"n"go him,any lowish or paired flop would be ideal to shove and ace high with 14bb+ behind would definitely be a horrible/difficult spot to call.

[noble1]

lol 17bbshoveaments

do you really think the most important thing in the BBs head is going to be the price he"s getting when he"s got a stack in the region of 20 - 25 BBs?  Give him the price to call if he wants, he"s more than welcome to come along oop with his rags.

hence if he calls,a 1/2 decent mtt player will stop+go given stack sizes and antes in play etc etc,,sry i"m defending the shove option in this situation/no reads as being the best line to take.
A good piece of advice i got from a vv good mtt player i got once was

look to maximise EXPECTATION,not your chances of getting called.Big bets and overbets/shoves can be seen as bluffs in mtts and sometimes get paid off

good advice i thought always treat every poker game as a lesson and u wont go far wrong is my mantra..

[Marty719]

Im prob not folding if he open shoves the flop.  And while we have no direct reads, the fact that he has all the ante chips at the table leads us to belive he is very active.

lol 17bbshoveaments

do you really think the most important thing in the BBs head is going to be the price he"s getting when he"s got a stack in the region of 20 - 25 BBs?  Give him the price to call if he wants, he"s more than welcome to come along oop with his rags.

This is 100% my though process in this spot.  Really the final table were the only spots were the money was very good - I wanted to give myself a good chance to get there.  Dnt want to open-shove every hand Im playing with <25x.  

[noble1]

yep i saw that u noted he had lots of small chips but at a 24bb stack size i discounted that he had been recently active.
i hope u can see the points i make for the stop+go at these stack sizes, as for calling if he did stop+go then good for u as it is the only defence against it,,but i"d like to see 1st that the player is capable of this pattern of play before i start calling. Stack wise its a high risk approach hence again in your situation/villains stacks i prefer shove pre,just seems more ev to me than any other play here we come up with.

anyhows good thread,got a few involved for once

[WYoung83]

 Its a really interesting thread and a problem that can be quite common in tourney play. i still think shoving is right, Unless you are going to stick it in on the flop no matter what he does when he acts first.

If i had a bigger stack infront of me. (say 20-25BBs, for arguments sake) i would raised 5xBB pre flop against this player with the antes out there. if he has me covered i like to manipulate the size of the pot so i can easily sick my stack in later in the hand, either by shoving to his repop or, on the flop after his flat call, no matter what comes down.
The easiest thing in this situation for AQ, would be to shove pre after he repops, but he just flats. So it makes so many variables later on.
Another thing to consider, Raising "bigger" pre flop against tougher opponents, people who have you covered or people who never fold the BB is, in my opion much better than the 2.5xbb that has created the situation that we are now discussing.

Anyway i never ment to be arrogant or disrespectful at all. i was just beign silly when i said that people dont know what they talking about, i have a black humor.

[noble1]

just ran it through sheets shove it spreadsheet ,so outta interest here are the results -
Players to act behind     2
Villain calls push with    10.3% 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo
Effective stack            170000
blinds/antes                5000 10000 1000
Win % AQo vs shove call range - 50.5%
Open Shove          200,678.35

give villain tighter range to call with of top 4% 99+,AQs+,AKo
Win % AQo vs shove call range - 33.3%
Open Shove                 170,653.03

give villain a loose 30% call range - 55+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
Win % AQo vs shove call range - 60%
Open Shove              330,384.00

so maths wise it is chip ev+

[JamieCarra]

just ran it through sheets shove it spreadsheet ,so outta interest here are the results -
Players to act behind     2
Villain calls push with    10.3% 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo
Effective stack            170000
blinds/antes                5000 10000 1000
Win % AQo vs shove call range - 50.5%
Open Shove          200,678.35

give villain tighter range to call with of top 4% 99+,AQs+,AKo
Win % AQo vs shove call range - 33.3%
Open Shove                 170,653.03

give villain a loose 30% call range - 55+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o
Win % AQo vs shove call range - 60%
Open Shove              330,384.00

so maths wise it is chip ev+

Calling a bet when last to act on the river with the stone cold nuts is +ev, it still doesn"t mean that it is the best option available though!

[noble1]

uhhh? u lost me there jamie? i get u think shoving is bad and think raising to get a call is good,but imo that opens us up to a stop+go unless the plan is to call the shove even if we miss,do we cbet if we miss,shove any flop if checked to,do we want to give villain the opportunity to see a flop with a worse hand for cheap that may out flop us with these stack sizes? .. if raising is better than shoving with a 17bb stack and u think its the better line then please explain it,i keep running the scenarios through in my mind but can"t really see the benefit of raising myself with not much info on villain...with this sorta of stack size [17bb] and the antes in play i"m looking to steal and double up if called pre or shove on medium stacks that i think are raising light etc etc,i dont tend to want to play much post flop poker.. if that is bad then point out the error of my ways..

[AMRN]

Excellent thread!!  Can see and understand positives and negatives in all potential actions here, but stand by my original view that open-shoving is a reasonable move, and may even be the best move.

All I was trying to say up front that open-shoving was a viable option that should not be discounted.... the more I think about it, with total lack of knowledge of the players at the table, I think that in my opinion, it may even be the best option.

(I"m kinda pleased that Noble1"s views supports mine  )