APAT Over Subscribed ! Whats the answer ?

[cabbie007]

Hi All and The Top Brass Of APAT,

I am new to APAT which seems to be a very strong brand with growing members. Blue Square on board with Grosvenor Casinos, so to solve the Nationals being over subscribed a new deal needs to be proposed.

I am sure if APAT approched a number of TV companys or even the present TV company which covers this years first Grosvenor UK Poker Tour sponsored by Blue Square more could be done for APAT members.

With TV backing Grosvenor Casinos would give more floor space and more days for the Nationals for all members to play. This would put APAT on the map in the UK as the only Amateur Poker Association for budding poker players to start there path to glory.

Its upseting for members not to be able to play in the Nationals ! Do you really think I am gonna go to Walsall from London to queue in the reserve list to be told sorry no room ! I propose the following:

1) Regionals - Players should have the choice take your seat in the Nationals or the money instead. Not all members want to play arround the country

2) Membership - All members issued with membership cards, you have to become a member first BEFORE you play. Turning up at a Regionals and playing on the day should be stopped, why because at some venues some people entered for fun as there were just in the casino at the time. This is an Apat event not come all, there not interested in Apat just playing that day.

3) Nationals - NO CLICK FEST ! Current Members pre-register over a 24 Hour period then Apat deduct payments. Maybe for the casinos to give up more room for more players £75 buy-in and £25 to casino = £100. 500 players = £12,500 to casino I am sure this would help them accomadate more players. These events would grow and grow boosting Apat as a Major force in UK Poker, more players to play everyone is happy.

Apat any thoughts ?
Members any more ideas ?

Kind Regards To all
Cabbie007

[kinboshi]

I don"t speak officially for APAT, and my response is my own personal thoughts and opinions:

Hi All and The Top Brass Of APAT,

I am new to APAT which seems to be a very strong brand with growing members. Blue Square on board with Grosvenor Casinos, so to solve the Nationals being over subscribed a new deal needs to be proposed.

I am sure if APAT approched a number of TV companys or even the present TV company which covers this years first Grosvenor UK Poker Tour sponsored by Blue Square more could be done for APAT members.

Who would pay for the TV coverage?  The GUKPT has a LOT more money in the pool - it"s £1,000 a seat!  There"s also juice for the casino to come out of the buy-in, not so in APAT.

With TV backing Grosvenor Casinos would give more floor space and more days for the Nationals for all members to play. This would put APAT on the map in the UK as the only Amateur Poker Association for budding poker players to start there path to glory.

The casinos are usually full to capacity for the National events. 

Its upseting for members not to be able to play in the Nationals ! Do you really think I am gonna go to Walsall from London to queue in the reserve list to be told sorry no room !

Others do.

I propose the following:

1) Regionals - Players should have the choice take your seat in the Nationals or the money instead. Not all members want to play arround the country

That"s exactly how it is at the moment, isn"t it?

2) Membership - All members issued with membership cards, you have to become a member first BEFORE you play. Turning up at a Regionals and playing on the day should be stopped, why because at some venues some people entered for fun as there were just in the casino at the time. This is an Apat event not come all, there not interested in Apat just playing that day.

As far as I"m aware, part of the deal that secured the venues and the added value from Rank (Grosvenor and BlueSQ) was that anyone who played in an APAT event online or live would automatically become an APAT member.

I"m not 100% happy with the way it"s worked out, but you can"t please everyone 100% all the time.  Des has struck a cracking deal that means there"s twice as much added value as Season 1.  That can"t be all bad, can it?

3) Nationals - NO CLICK FEST ! Current Members pre-register over a 24 Hour period then Apat deduct payments.

I"ve covered this on another thread.  How do you deal with 500 people wanting to play in a 200-capacity casino?

Maybe for the casinos to give up more room for more players £75 buy-in and £25 to casino = £100. 500 players = £12,500 to casino I am sure this would help them accomadate more players.

That would certainly help to cut the numbers adding 33% juice on the tournament buy-in.  There"d be plenty of free seats then!

These events would grow and grow boosting Apat as a Major force in UK Poker, more players to play everyone is happy.

APAT is becoming a major force in UK poker, and it will continue to grow.  For an organisation that has been running for a little over 12 months, it"s made quite a splash, hasn"t it?

Apat any thoughts ?
Members any more ideas ?

I don"t think the regionals are running as APAT would like yet - but that"s expected, and why the first ones were kept low-key.  They were really trial runs. 

There are also the other events (Pro-Am, inter-forum tournaments, internationals, etc.) to look forward to this year. 

Like I said, that"s just my personal thoughts.  Des will probably answer in more detail and correct me where I"m wrong.

[Jon MW]

One point I"d address is that of additional day ones.

Although I think this is appropriate for the European/World (i.e. higher status) tournaments, it isn"t for every tournament.

The reason being is that as APAt is aimed at amateur players, 2 day ones virtually requires people to take time off work. If this was the norm rather than the exception it would penalise those players who have limited opportunity to pick and choose when to take time off.

It is because of this that the limit of casino"s card rooms effectively becomes the limit of the National event being held there - so any added incentive for the casinos isn"t required as it will make no difference to the capacity.

[GiMac]

here"s my humble 2 peneth worth.

1) No. This choice shouldnt be given. The whole point of the regionals is so that people have a live opportunity to qualify for national events and not just an online satellite opportunity. If some people decide they want to play just for the cash this changes how they may play. i.e. we generally play satellite tournaments differently to normal tournaments.

2) I agree here, however I understand that as part of the sponsorship deal this cannot now be implemented. So we have our bed and will have to lie in it.

3) Personally I wouldnt play in ANY tournament where the juice was 33% of the buy-in. This would completely negate the added value, which APAT have managed to do so well in negotiating with the sponsors. I think the fact that the events are oversubscribed in turn gives higher status to the events themselves and they feel far more important to those that manage to get a seat.

[kinboshi]

here"s my humble 2 peneth worth.

1) No. This choice shouldnt be given. The whole point of the regionals is so that people have a live opportunity to qualify for national events and not just an online satellite opportunity. If some people decide they want to play just for the cash this changes how they may play. i.e. we generally play satellite tournaments differently to normal tournaments.

If a player has to drop out due to illness or a family bereavement, they"d get a refund - wouldn"t they?  

Other players will take their seats, so no one loses out.  The prize pool is maintained, and someone who wants the seat gets it.  Yes, it would be annoying for those who bubbled in the regionals to see that they would have had a seat if someone who placed doesn"t take up the offer of the seat - but there"s no way round it really.

Maybe there is a partial solution.  Those that don"t take up the seat only get a partial refund.  Maybe £50, with the £25 taken as an admin fee.  Although this would be harsh for those who have a legitimate reason for not being able to attend.

More ideas to discuss I guess...

[Jon MW]

...
1) No. This choice shouldnt be given. The whole point of the regionals is so that people have a live opportunity to qualify for national events and not just an online satellite opportunity. If some people decide they want to play just for the cash this changes how they may play. i.e. we generally play satellite tournaments differently to normal tournaments.
...

aarggh!! How many times do I have to make this argument?

The whole point of the regionals is not just, "so that people have a live opportunity to qualify for national events", they are not just satellites.

Not only are they tournaments within their own right (with prize money and  medals), they are part of the regional championship - you score points and try to win the Regional "league" as such.

There is no reason to particularly believe that any player who enters a regional tournament wants the seat in the National tournament.

[kinboshi]

I would.

[Jon MW]

I would.

Lots would - I"m just saying that it is a reason to enter, but not the only reason.

[kinboshi]

I would.

Lots would - I"m just saying that it is a reason to enter, but not the only reason.

I know.  I was just being annoying.

[Jon MW]

I would.

Lots would - I"m just saying that it is a reason to enter, but not the only reason.

I know.  I was just being annoying.

- I considered starting my last post with, "are you deliberately being annoying?" - but then realised that it would be a rhetorical question.  

[KVNSTV]

Hello Cabbie, its great that you have taken the time to put your thoughts forward and your efforts show how much the amateur card players wish there voice to be heard. I'm sure your contribution will be very valuable in the future of the APAt. Here are some of my own thoughts on your points raised. 

1.)   As JonMW says the regional's are competitions in there own rights but they also act as satellites as good counter point to the problems of over subscription. I take your point on board and maybe on occasion a cash prize might be more suitable. Personally I would like at some point to see players who have made failed attempts to qualify through the regional events given some kind of advantage in purchasing seats for the nationals.  
2.)   I really like the fact people can join on the day and play, I believe the APAt needs to be as inclusive as possible and weight of number will really help the association in its attempts to make positive changes for card players in general. Also once players have tried the structures and experienced the camaraderie at the events I think they will become positive contributing members to the association. This will become more prevalent as the local associations form and grow.
3.)   One of the aims of the association is to make sure every one gets a fair shake and are not exploited, 33% juice is not going to help in that aim. I don't think anyone really likes the click fests and I'm sure it's a long term aim to eliminate them by various means which will be supported by the regional APAt organisations when they are fully formed.

These are just my own personal thoughts, yada yada yada.

[HaworthBantam]

1.)   ...........Personally I would like at some point to see players who have made failed attempts to qualify through the regional events given some kind of advantage in purchasing seats for the nationals.  

And in what way is that fair to those players unable to take part in a regional tournament ? Do you propose the same for those who miss out on qualification via the online events ?

As has been mentioned earlier, the regionals are events in their own right and have their own championship status, they are not solely for the purpose of qualifying for a national.

Ian

[cabbie007]

Ok maybe priorty to the Nationals should first be the people who attended the regionals.
There is a two tier click fest Day one would be those who attended a regional event but who missed out on seats, APAT would have a list of this. This could use software like Online tournys where you recieve a tourny token to enter then buy your seat.
Day two whatever seats are left goes on gerneral sale. in turn this would boost the regional attendance.

[APAT]

Hi All and The Top Brass Of APAT,

Indeed!

I am new to APAT which seems to be a very strong brand with growing members. Blue Square on board with Grosvenor Casinos, so to solve the Nationals being over subscribed a new deal needs to be proposed.

I am sure if APAT approched a number of TV companys or even the present TV company which covers this years first Grosvenor UK Poker Tour sponsored by Blue Square more could be done for APAT members.

With TV backing Grosvenor Casinos would give more floor space and more days for the Nationals for all members to play. This would put APAT on the map in the UK as the only Amateur Poker Association for budding poker players to start there path to glory.

Do your homework please - TV companies to not pay to cover poker events in the UK, poker companies do (base your thinking on circa £50,000 a day).  I would much rather our sponsors invest in our players and events than late night TV coverage.

Its upseting for members not to be able to play in the Nationals ! Do you really think I am gonna go to Walsall from London to queue in the reserve list to be told sorry no room ! I propose the following:

APAT has increased the number of seats available to members from c1,200 to c. 8,000 in Season Two.  Without sounding smug, APAT is delivering at an incredible rate but clearly we cannot magic up larger cardrooms? (but I have wrote it down as a development opportunity  

1) Regionals - Players should have the choice take your seat in the Nationals or the money instead. Not all members want to play arround the country

I tend to agree with this, but if we go this route then a great deal of administration will follow and other initiatives will be shelved.  Which would be a shame, as we have some very exciting stuff planned  

2) Membership - All members issued with membership cards, you have to become a member first BEFORE you play. Turning up at a Regionals and playing on the day should be stopped, why because at some venues some people entered for fun as there were just in the casino at the time. This is an Apat event not come all, there not interested in Apat just playing that day.

Nope.  APAT's core objective is to pull together the largest independent body of players in the UK, to influence widescale pro player change in the industry.  The tour and everything that surrounds it is a tool to that end.

3) Nationals - NO CLICK FEST ! Current Members pre-register over a 24 Hour period then Apat deduct payments. Maybe for the casinos to give up more room for more players £75 buy-in and £25 to casino = £100. 500 players = £12,500 to casino I am sure this would help them accomadate more players. These events would grow and grow boosting Apat as a Major force in UK Poker, more players to play everyone is happy.

APAT is already a significant force in UK poker and we are ideally positioned to become the most significant force.  Adding a 33% rake would be wrong wrong wrong.

Apat any thoughts ?

A great deal of thought has gone into the direction that APAT has taken thus far and if players really want to contribute positively to discussions on future strategy, then it is not enough to jot topline thoughts like this, punctuated with words like "NO CLICK FEST" etc, without giving your submission a fair deal of thought prior.  I don"t mean to be harsh Cabbie, but APAT didn"t just "happen".

Members any more ideas ?

Kind Regards To all
Cabbie007

Not wanting to be flippant, but the introduction of the Regional Championship and additional 7,000 seats is the answer.  From a tour point of view, I"m not sure what we can do further to create more seats.

[APAT]

Would somebody please teach me how to use the forum quote function!