Author Topic: can you fold here?  (Read 7246 times)

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treydj

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can you fold here?
« on: January 26, 2010, 22:04:03 PM »
Hi all

I"ll do this bit by bit and see what responses I get  :P

55 players left - top 50 get paid. only a £10 tourney so 50th paid about £25.

6 handed tables.

Blinds are 500/1000 - very fast structure as chip leader is around 40k

I am UTG with 15500 and am dealt ATs.

all players at the table haven"t really got out of line - SB is second in chips with 35k - BB has around 18k

a) raise to 2.5 BB (my standard)
b) shove
c) call
d) fold

thanks

Jas
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WYoung83

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 22:16:45 PM »
Way to many variables to give a straight answer here.

Depends on how many chips the other players behind have got, especially the BB. Also depends on your own image (what do others think about you) just noticed you have actually posted the BB chip counts sorry...lol.

Im gonna actually answer none of the above. Small ball raises (2.5 x bb) are not right in this situation, limping is actually worse than folding, and im never folding A-10s at a six handed table anyway. You need to manipulate your own pot odds incase someone shoves over the top of you, and to do this i think more healthy raises are best late on. The problem with raising only 2.5x the BB is the pot odds that you are giving the BB to call, you dont really mind him calling when he is oop anyway, but it doesnt give you much info about his hand. I think i would like to raise 4x bb here and hope to take it down. trouble is if the biggerstack shoves, you are left with a Marginal hand getting only 1.7-1 for a show down, and if you now fold you are left with just 11000 left in your stack.

Tough spot maybe see what Noble1 says.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 22:35:38 PM by WYoung83 »

duke3016

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 22:27:45 PM »
Shove -- but that"s just me  ;D

treydj

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 22:38:16 PM »
well........

I raised 2.5 x - never folding to a shove six handed with my stack.

the big stack in the SB flatted - which I think is terrible but alarm bells were ringing all the same.

at this moment i put him on pocket pairs 6"s + and AT +.

i felt if he had anything like JJ or better or AK he would reraise pre.

flop came  ah  9d  kd

He checked - i have no hearts or diamonds in my hand

now what?
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WYoung83

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 23:06:08 PM »
 Because you raised so small preflop for me now its actually hard to narrow his range, he could of called your bet with a weaker Ace. (hes probably gonna repop with better aces than A-10 or a pair like you say) The board is scary, could he have called your raise with a Q10/ jQ/ J10 or 89dd. lots of straighty broadway and pair/ flushy combos here.

Im assuming the BB folded? But if you had raised bigger preflop, and he had still called, you should feel more comfortable getting it all in now because you have manupilated your pot odds.

the pot is now 6k and he has you covered, you have 13k left. This may seem strange and i know people are gonna laugh at me here, but i would personally proceed with caution and check like a little girl. If he has some sort of combo draw, then he may be willing to gamble and check raise you all in, which puts you in a tough spot because a C-bet would be about 4-5k?? You havent got enough behind to fold. By checking you do two things, keep the pot small by saving a bet, and if a brick comes on the turn, you have now shown weakness so he may fire at it with a worse hand than yours, for instance a KQ or smaller Ace, which then you can get it all in on the turn.
If a card comes to complete any of the draws (and there is a lot of scary turn cards that can come down) then you have to go with you instincts. (at least you have position).



AMRN

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 23:26:54 PM »


I raised 2.5 x - never folding to a shove six handed with my stack.



You"ve kind of answered your own question here. If you are never folding to a shove, why not take the impetus away from the rest of the table and just open shove? If your plan includes getting your chips in preflop, you are far better off getting them in first and having that additional way to win the hand.

With 15xBB in this spot, I"m usually shoving hands like ATs at a 6-max table.

mousebob

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 00:05:57 AM »
I"d be putting villian on AA or KK now & he"s trapping you!
I"m checking it down if poss.
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George2Loose

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 01:37:33 AM »
In order:

Shove
Shove
Shove
Shove
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noble1

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2010, 03:18:57 AM »
if it is 500/1000 a100 then shoving is ok ish if u are in the shoving brigade , its marginal if villains are calling tight but just slightly better than break even, so the shovers can justify there case with the maths.
A good situation to put up because of the awkward size stack :) if i play 6max mtts i play just like full ring and just imagine that UTG, UTG+1, and MP1 have already folded,so if deeper stacked would i raise ATs? well hell yeah.
The buy in influences my decision here i guess, as i vote fold - reason - meh there are way to many weak players making mistakes even with 55 platers left there has to be at least 2 really dubious sorts at this table and i"d be looking to get jiggy with them.So i fold and try to find a spot to double up, as WYoung83 says there are a few variables missing and with more info on the dynamics/opponents this would likely sway my decisions..

Nice flop treydj :) u hit top pair,opponent checks to raiser...Rather than give the usual bet fold or check raise reply , i"ll tell u what i"d consider before i choose what to do..We dont have a monster but we have one that could potentially win unimproved at showdown, i"d consider villains possible range then put them in groups of what hands will pay me off, [weaker ones]... hands that may have me beat and hands that wont pay me off unless they hit and mixed in with that are his draws [which is better with a read as to how he"d play them] and lastly has he called with a hand which has missed the flop.
The way i always try to approach poker whilst playing or reviewing my play is to figure how the hands i am beating will react to whatever action i take, so for me reads are essential to get on players..

So basically i have dodged answering the post flop question ;D and i"ll wait and see what others think :-X
Quote
(proceed with caution and check like a little girl)
:)  if my niece were to read this i"m pretty sure the barbie dolls head would be ripped off :)


edit - with your initial thoughts on villains hand range u are either way ahead or way behind, so i"d check also and try to control the pot and hopefully get one bet out of him on the turn or river, if your read is that he"d rr AA KK QQ AK maybe even AQ pre then by checking we might get him to stab the turn or river with his smaller pocket pairs or if checked to the river u can make a value bet which he will check call.. if he has AQdd AJdd obv he checks [just 2 hands] mostly randoms will try to check raise these imo and if they have AQo or AJ etc then i mostly think they choose to lead out on a 2suit flop , if villain leads turn and river its a reluctant fold [at least u have some sorta stack left to work your way back up with] , if he checks turn i"d check also giving us the option to call a bet or value bet river ....
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 05:12:58 AM by noble1 »

Marty719

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2010, 07:14:45 AM »

In order:

Shove
Shove
Shove
Shove


Exactly this^^^^^^^
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noble1

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 11:20:20 AM »
http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=1159.0

have a listen from 5 minutes in to his thoughts , lots of useful titbits in the video imho.. [and its free]

shozboy1

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2010, 16:06:45 PM »
you could probably raise 2.5k (stack maybe just about big enough for a raise/fold). If someone reshoves you can probably safely fold, as they"re shoving over a UTG raise close to the bubble. Plus no-one has really been out of line.

As is played, I would cbet the flop a healthy amount and be very happy to call for all my chips on the flop if i get 3bet. There"s probably alot of bad turn cards that could kill your action or have you beat. Hopefully you are ahead at the mo so get it in would be ok for me on this flop. It would be very difficult to assign him a narrow range based on a small blind call and check on the flop. You have to feel your ahead of lots of hands here
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treydj

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2010, 22:04:57 PM »
thanks guys

after the flop - he checked to me.

I had roughly 12k behind

I had two options. check and take the free card or bet out - thus commiting myself .

I bet circa 3k - he shoved and I called - he showed A 9 for two pair and I"m gone.

My problem with the whole hand is I had such an awkward stack whatever I did pre flop (apart from fold which is way too weak) was commiting me to the hand.

His call from the SB was just terrible and I just could not put him on 2 pair.

In hindsight I think I just should have shoved

:-\
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noble1

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2010, 05:47:47 AM »
prob get abuse by the shove brigade but i"ll write it anyway ;D

if i was u trey i"d look at all aspects of how u could improve your 10 to 20bb play... u still had a perfect stack to resteal with imho, was there any loose raisers or loose passive limping going on that u could took advantage of for example, were the players to your left overly tight [setting up easy blind stealing from the button] and vice versa when u was in the blinds could u steal there?
Personally my short stack threshold is 8 to 10bb cos it still has some FE imo , obv the later the shove the better and 1st in vigorous etc blah blah..
Obv all on dynamics etc and if u read that shoving utg would get called by worse aces etc because the players were calling silly light then chancing a double is up gr8 , but with this stack rather than pick up 1.5bb and 6antes why not look to resteal off a loose 3x raiser or 2 limpers etc and pick up more? use the FE u have that way? so u either pick up more like this if they fold or u double up if called, just seems a better use of your stack size imho...

anyhows thats my thoughts on it :)


Marty719

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Re: can you fold here?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2010, 07:51:57 AM »
Obv the stack will be used to 3-bet over ppl to pick up $ but I dnt see why tht affects our decision here.  We can still add a nice % of our stack w/ blinds and antes, and still have a nice 3-b shove stack for f/e.  We still want to be picking up valuable blinds and antes every step of the way.  2,100 is such a valuable % of our stack tht i think its a mistake not trying to pick it up.
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