so called 'donk bets'

[shozboy1]

This is another hand from winning poker tourneys one hand at a time. Hope people don"t mind me posting these occasionally for discussion...
This one is played by Eric "Rizen" Lynch.

3rd hand of a $55 nightly freezeout. blinds 10-20. No significant reads on anyone and no image at this point.

Everyone at the 9 handed table has roughly the 3k starting stack.

Folded to mid position player who raises to 60. Rizen is on the buttn with AKo. He reraises to 250. MP calls.

Flop is . Pot is 530.

MP leads into us for 320.

We...?

[Marty719]

With no history or reads we insta-fold

[AMRN]

Fold.

To be honest though, in level 1, with no reads or info, I suspect I might have flatted preflop, and looked to play the flop in position..... that way I have the opportunity to 3-bet post flop without committing to the hand.

[Mikeyboy9361]

Fold

[cincicrappykid]

good mr redferne 9/10

[shozboy1]

Rizen folds. He says AK very tough to play when deep stacked. He advocates flatting a raise from an EP raiser, but willingly repops a MP/late pos raiser.

He interprets the donk bet as "often when a player leads into us he has some sort of weak made hand or draw". If he"d read the man for being able to lay down 88/A10/flush draw here its a raise on the flop. However, without a read, very early in a tourney, fold for the safe route.

[Marty719]

He interprets the donk bet as "often when a player leads into us he has some sort of weak made hand or draw".

I think its also become overly popular to donk a lot of strong made hands in this spot also.  

[WYoung83]

 Like i said the other day on here, this "donk lead" is fast becomming part of the meta game strategy, and im not to sure weather it should be called a "donk" play anymore.
It deffo is a weird line for anyone to take, If he had a set of or for example, surely he would rather go for the check raise. The Donk lead is defently not a play that i ever do, but i see it all the time during cash games, when i repop they usually insta fold and i take a note on them about this. But in tourneys its much harder for you to repop because your AK now becomes a bluff with 1/2 your stack on the line.

On a side note i also consider AK a much tougher hand to play during tourneys than in cash games. In cash games with 100BBs or less, then im willing to get it in pre flop, because if a opponent has QQ then you want to see all 5 cards . but early on during a tourney, if you have around 150-200 BBs then this is a bit spewy and most of the time your at the wrong end of a flip and heading to the cash tables.

[shozboy1]

I would rarely want to be all in in a cash game with "100BBs or less" with AK. Although I take your point alot of people now lead out for value when the flop a set versus checking to the raiser
Alot of the young internet pros still call it a donk bet though, and say it should be raised with position versus folding/calling

[Swinebag]

Fold.

To be honest though, in level 1, with no reads or info, I suspect I might have flatted preflop, and looked to play the flop in position..... that way I have the opportunity to 3-bet post flop without committing to the hand.

agree with champ

[George2Loose]

Like i said the other day on here, this "donk lead" is fast becomming part of the meta game strategy, and im not to sure weather it should be called a "donk" play anymore.
It deffo is a weird line for anyone to take, If he had a set of or for example, surely he would rather go for the check raise. The Donk lead is defently not a play that i ever do, but i see it all the time during cash games, when i repop they usually insta fold and i take a note on them about this. But in tourneys its much harder for you to repop because your AK now becomes a bluff with 1/2 your stack on the line.

On a side note i also consider AK a much tougher hand to play during tourneys than in cash games. In cash games with 100BBs or less, then im willing to get it in pre flop, because if a opponent has QQ then you want to see all 5 cards . but early on during a tourney, if you have around 150-200 BBs then this is a bit spewy and most of the time your at the wrong end of a flip and heading to the cash tables.

90% of leads are donk leads. FACT

[shozboy1]

So what would you have done in this hand? Raised?

[George2Loose]

So what would you have done in this hand? Raised?

Against an unknown I will tend to just fold. I would take Steve"s line this early and just flat

[TheSnapper]

The key element to this hand is stack size, starting stack in these events is 3000 chips. Thats 150 bb"s deep, AK has a completely different relevent value in this spot compared to say 20 bb"s when its a monster. Also, Rizen has considerable edge over the field, which is a factor, a bad spot for him may be as good as it gets for mere mortals.

Regarding AK in a 100 bb cash scenario, as is often the case, it depends. AK has lots of equity against most 3 bet ranges but the lower the stakes the tighter the 4 bet ranges become and thats when AK loses value ( history may widen ranges but only slightly ). Versus a tight 4 bet range of QQ+, AQs+, AKo, AK has only 43% equity and very little in the way of fold equity.

The thing is though, without AK, your 4 bet / all in preflop range is unbalanced and exploitable. So taking slightly the worst of it on occasion has to be evaluated in conjunction with the action it induces at the top of your range.

[Marty719]

The key element to this hand is stack size, starting stack in these events is 3000 chips. Thats 150 bb"s deep, AK has a completely different relevent value in this spot compared to say 20 bb"s when its a monster. Also, Rizen has considerable edge over the field, which is a factor, a bad spot for him may be as good as it gets for mere mortals.

Regarding AK in a 100 bb cash scenario, as is often the case, it depends. AK has lots of equity against most 3 bet ranges but the lower the stakes the tighter the 4 bet ranges become and thats when AK loses value ( history may widen ranges but only slightly ). Versus a tight 4 bet range of QQ+, AQs+, AKo, AK has only 43% equity and very little in the way of fold equity.

The thing is though, without AK, your 4 bet / all in preflop range is unbalanced and exploitable. So taking slightly the worst of it on occasion has to be evaluated in conjunction with the action it induces at the top of your range.

/thread..............this^^^^^^^^^^^^all of this^^^^^^^^^