Is this shove ok

[shozboy1]

Views on this shove would be welcome. Its small and BB hand (me in the SB). Is a low buyin 2500 man tourney with 80ish left. I have been very aggressive, and on this particular table continued that trend. Played about 70-80 hands on this table. Against the player in this hand, I"ve open raised 5-6 times off the buttn when he"s been in the SB. He"s folded couple of times, 3bet me (causing me to fold) 2-3 times aswell. He"s also recently down to 14ish BBs and switched to shove/fold strategy.
The last time we clashed was about 20 hands ago when I had AQs on buttn, he repops from SB. I shove and he calls with 99. He wins that race. That left me with about 20 BBs at the time, but managed to chip up again. Anyway, now I have 20BBs, he has 15BBs. I shoved because I felt he"d reraise a limp/small raise by me in keeping with our prev history.

So question is is this shove fine?


PokerStars Game #38955163621: Tournament #281110176, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (2000/4000) - 2010/01/30 13:53:05 WET [2010/01/30 8:53:05 ET]
Table "281110176 127" 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Illuminati13 (60694 in chips)
Seat 2: DARVADOR (198982 in chips)
Seat 4: @hp3@ (154692 in chips)
Seat 5: Slyer3 (111354 in chips)
Seat 6: zabaglione (246638 in chips)
Seat 7: opontios (137323 in chips)
Seat 8: St3ve-OO (46130 in chips)
Seat 9: shozboy (87113 in chips)
Illuminati13: posts the ante 400
DARVADOR: posts the ante 400
@hp3@: posts the ante 400
Slyer3: posts the ante 400
zabaglione: posts the ante 400
opontios: posts the ante 400
St3ve-OO: posts the ante 400
shozboy: posts the ante 400
shozboy: posts small blind 2000
Illuminati13: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [ ]
DARVADOR: folds
@hp3@: folds
Slyer3: folds
zabaglione: folds
opontios: folds
St3ve-OO: folds
shozboy: raises 82713 to 86713 and is all-in

[LongshanksED]

Too aggresive IMO

is have just flatted pre if I feel he"s gonna come over the top with ATC.

Your short but not desperate and on the button next hand were you can shove to take blinds and antes

[AMRN]

There was an article about this in the last round of PP..... "The Unexploitable Shove". When open shoving from the SB, the BB can only really call with a very narrow range. You only have one player to get through (low risk) and you can"t be 3-bet off the hand or outplayed post flop, hence it being called unexploitable.

I don"t mind your shove, so long as it"s not a habitual move, otherwise the BB range for calling widens signficantly.

[shozboy1]

yes I saw that issue of PP. Although I"d been aggressive, this was the 1st time I"d open shoved generally.
I hated completing the blinds, given how he"d been playing. I thought there was a very decent chance he"d shove. Same reason I didnt like raising. I wonder what order people would put the options in here?

for me its shove>limp>raise>fold?

With 20BBs and less than 100 players left (and falling fast) I had mentally switched to a push/fold/resteal mentality.

[noble1]

surely this is only unexploitable if u are called 100% and it is cEV+ against a random hand ? with FE this is obv cEV..


K3o versus random calling 100%

.51*65494=33401
.49* -58294= -28564
= +4837

32o versus random
.33*65494=21613
.67* -58294= -39056
= -17443

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=10641083&an=0&page=2 link to sng moshman writes about - http://forum.parttimepoker.com/showthread.php?t=512670
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/Unexploitable-Play-and-When-To-Use-It-Vivek-Rajkumar-1591.htm
this article in PKR made me laugh , he just writes about the spew that is happening in low stakes http://www.pkr.com/en/raise-your-game/sit-and-go/sitngos19-1of3/

[Mikeyboy9361]

Too aggressive for me! Can see the logic, but having battled thru 2500 players with 20BBs left I would be waiting for a better spot.

[noble1]

K3o versus a 25% call range - 66+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

.75*9200 = 6900
.25*.36*65494 = 5894
.25*.64* -58294 = -9327

6900+5894-9327 = +3466

i have not seen the PP article but i have got this one bookmarked by http://www.pokerplayer.co.uk/poker-strategy/sit-and-go-poker/7818/sit-and-go-strategy.html
though tbh i dont agree with her maths..it seems more approx than mine

So question is is this shove fine?

yes as long as u understand the maths and the hand ranges behind it all...

[shozboy1]

thanks for taking the time with the maths noble. So I"m good to go and repeat this if necessary.

Longshank, I know where you"re coming from but the "big money" was in the top 3-4 spots. The difference between say 10th (final table bubble) and 57th in prize money (where I actually finished) was negligible so felt I needed to take down the huge pot in the middle relative to my stack, and the best way of doing so would be to shove (to give myself a chance of making the final 9)

[LongshanksED]

I"m no adverse to the shove. But I"d rather shove with suited connecters or something like k10 or j8

the k3 for me is too much of a gap

[shozboy1]

I"m not sure what plays better in these scenarios. High cards or those lower but closer together cards. Besides I guess the villians calling range is more important then my cards no?

[mousebob]

I"m not adverse to the shove. But I"d rather shove with suited connecters or something like k10 or j8

the k3 for me is too much of a gap.....+1....hate that kicker!