can you fold here?

[LongshanksED]

Pre flop I have made it 4k to go (4bb) thus commiting to a shove pre. The 2.5x raise is giving the bb odds to call with a wide variety of hands as he"s getting nearly 3/1 odds.

Also if you have a multiple players preflop you can get away with it and still have 10bb to play with

[Marty719]

Pre flop I have made it 4k to go (4bb) thus commiting to a shove pre. The 2.5x raise is giving the bb odds to call with a wide variety of hands as he"s getting nearly 3/1 odds.

Also if you have a multiple players preflop you can get away with it and still have 10bb to play with

Y is 4x > shoving??  I think its the worst of the 3 agg options:

shove>2.5x>4x

[George2Loose]

U have such an awkward stack size post flop and live players will peel so wide against a 20 BB stack it"s ridic. He should be setting you all in pre or folding.

SHOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shozboy1]

just on the issue of re-steals. Are you doing this with ATC? What I mean is the chances of a situation occurring where the time is ripe for a resteal, plus having a reasonableish hand to do it with often don"t occur together as we would want in an ideal world. Decent cards come along infrequently, but resteal spots appear more frequently. Hence shove resteals with ATC is the way forward no?
What I"m saying in a long winded way is am i right in saying the situation (late pos loose raiser/multiple passive limpers etc etc) is many times more important then your starting hand? i.e do those more experienced then me resteal with 72o as often as A10 when the time is right?

[George2Loose]

just on the issue of re-steals. Are you doing this with ATC? What I mean is the chances of a situation occurring where the time is ripe for a resteal, plus having a reasonableish hand to do it with often don"t occur together as we would want in an ideal world. Decent cards come along infrequently, but resteal spots appear more frequently. Hence shove resteals with ATC is the way forward no?
What I"m saying in a long winded way is am i right in saying the situation (late pos loose raiser/multiple passive limpers etc etc) is many times more important then your starting hand? i.e do those more experienced then me resteal with 72o as often as A10 when the time is right?

Really is villian dependant. Most of the time capable players aren"t raise/folding a 15bb stack so you have to assess their range against the range your willing to shove for value.

Problem for both players is playing a flop post flop with very small effective stack sizes which is why in these situations I will just open ship almost all of my range for value.

[noble1]

when i see shove in replies without any explaination as to why then i find it frustrating..
When a stack is an M of 10 or less the egg heads did the maths and came up with various push ranges based on how many players were left to act behind and there call ranges..
What you have to understand though is the edge u have by doing it and how your hand performs against the calling range.
In treys situation the effective stacks are all shallow and playing straight forward

all players at the table haven"t really got out of line

so if Trey shoves what would we expect to be called with? with it being a donkament generally these characters will look down at 88+, ATs+, AJo+ KQs    and call , that is 7.39% of hands , so with 5 to act it is just a case of multiplying the times every1 folds - .93*.93*.93*.93*.93 = 70% [just doing this rough/approx but close enough] When u know player call ranges and the preflop pot size with a little bit of maths and a bit of tinkering with pokerstove u can work out what hands u can push from what position that will be +cEV no matter what if called by this range.. In treys situation ATs is towards the bottom of the range that he can push to be +cEV , if u guys do the maths you"ll work out u need 33% equity to break even [22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo u can shove to be +cEV]
What u need to understand though is the variance because this is not a low variance approach and u"ll find yourself possibly getting frustrated when u hit the rough end of it [so be prepared]
The actual ROI% for shoving ATs here is 1.5% approx , so long term if u shove here everytime it is not a huge edge so please take that into account along with how close u are to the ITM positions..
If say Trey thought these guys were nitting it up and would only call AK QQ+ then your shove range to be break even plus would be a huge 62% edit [make that 100%] to risk a pick up of 13% to his stack...

This info will be old news to seasoned APATers but for those who are at the early stages of there poker learning hopefully this will be helpful to u....