cash game hand

[shozboy1]

How did I play this? Do I fold/call river?


PokerStars Game #39231857293:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/02/04 20:51:13 WET [2010/02/04 15:51:13 ET]
Table "Isabella X" 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: udbrky ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: Waylanderl ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: 0hMyDog ($92.45 in chips)
Seat 4: shozboy ($59.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Nayk89 ($23 in chips)
Seat 6: Silent_Allen ($50.75 in chips)
Seat 7: ilushin1978 ($26.35 in chips)
Seat 9: MrPowell222 ($50.75 in chips)
0hMyDog: posts small blind $0.25
shozboy: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [ ]
Nayk89: folds
Silent_Allen: folds
ilushin1978: folds
MrPowell222: raises $1.50 to $2
udbrky: folds
Waylanderl: folds
0hMyDog: folds
shozboy: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [ ]
shozboy: checks
MrPowell222: bets $3
shozboy: calls $3
*** TURN *** [ ] []
shozboy: checks
MrPowell222: bets $7.50
shozboy: calls $7.50
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
shozboy: checks
MrPowell222: bets $17

[Swinebag]

too many nits at full ring 50NL. They rarely bluff the river. I fold. The only thing you realistically beat is a 3 barrell with AK.

[treydj]

Your decision to check call the flop is ok.

I cannot understand your thinking of calling a pretty big bet on the turn with a view to folding the river when   hits.

It changes nothing from turn to river.  If you thought you were ahead on the turn - then I think you must call the river .

I would have called the flop, but when an overcard hits, and the third diamond appears - you have to ask yourself what are you beating? So I fold the turn and wait for a better spot thus avoiding difficult situations.

A read on the villain would also be helpful .......

Jas

[Marty719]

Yea I think I fold turn a lot of the time unless villain has a history of barreling.  If you call turn, call river.

[deanp27]

too many posts on here that lack information on villain (and hero as well) - you need reads/stats on the opposition to play poker succesfully

as played you need to make your decision on the turn - call turn means you should call river.

I don"t play much full ring anymore but it is far nittier than 6max

[shozboy1]

sorry, this was one of the 1st hands I played at the table. Therefore no reads on the villain. So I just went with a default read of what the average guy would do. For the record, I"ve purposely left out my river decision. I didn;t want to post if I"d folded or called.

My thinking was obviously I"m never folding to a flop cbet. His range for cbet is way too wide and its a very good flop for a pair of .

The turn completes the flush draw and is a queen. He bet reasonably big again. I figured if he had a flush, given my show of weakness, he wouldn"t bet so big with a flush because there;s no value in that. Also, if he had a queen he had to worry about me having a flush. So again, it doesn"t make sense for him to bet this big even with a queen.

I did infact call the river as I felt the changes nothing. Again he bets biggish. I"ve shown no interest at all, and therefore my feeling was he was trying to get a better hand to fold with bigger bets. I called and he flipped over AKo so I took it down.

The reason I"m posting though is to ask whether people think my reasoning was sound or abit dodgy

perhaps in hindsight I should"ve folded turn to a bet given I have no reads on this guy? I do however, as opposed to someone else who posted, find the play is more aggressive in 25/50 then 10/25. Alot more 3betting and double/triple barrelling

[Marty719]

Once u check the river - this guy is v/betting a lot of hands tht have 9"s beat.  With no info I think its a fold.

Edit:  On the turn obv

[AMRN]

Once you have decided to call on the turn, you have already made your decision to call on the river - that 7 changed nothing, so if you thing you were ahead on the turn, you must still be ahead.

Have to say though, I"m not sure why you called on the turn. TBH, I don"t really like the call on the flop either - I"m usually raising here to find out where my medium pair stands.

[Marty719]

I hate r/f"n flop as well btw.  I think peeling on the flop and re-evaluating turn is best option against an opponent with no reads

[George2Loose]

Wow. Some of the comments on here scare me

[bigredders]

nobody else hate the call before the flop??!! surely you have to raise here. if not before the flop then on the flop, you just havent defined your hand at any point.

[WYoung83]

 I dont hate the call pre flop. yes he is oop, but if he gets repoped then he has to either Jam or fold and obviously with over 100bbs most of the time you are either slightly in front or way way behind. So taking a flop is not so bad.

check call the flop is also ok, but i think actually your big mistake was the way you played the turn. by check calling the turn, you have not got controll of the pot, or defined your opponents had. Instead, try leading the turn for about $5, if opponent calls then at least you get to see the river cheaper than check calling his 2nd barrel. And if he raises you then its very possible you are beat. And i know some here will say that this is a donk lead, but jhonny chann has perfected this turn play and it works well in situations like this. It is a far better play than check calling. Here is why.....

First of all it is a great way to define opponents hand. If opponent has AK, now he will surely fold and you are not going to get bluffed at the river.
 you may even get hands that you are losing against to lay it down here, like or jacks (although somtimes unlikley), it will knock him off guard and slow him down however when the Q comes, and you effectivly get to see the river cheaper than with check calling his bet.
He may also let you check down the river with many hands and you get to see what hand he had. Now if you lead the turn and he raises you. Then easy fold, and you are not going to make a crying call on the river. So by actually betting the turn you achive many things, Information,  saving money when you are losing ( because you have bet $5 instead of check calling $7.5) and slowing opponent down. if you can slow the opponent down, save money at the same time and see the river cheaper, then you have played the hand well IMO.

This is a move that Jhonny chann/phill hellmuth does all the time, check call the flop with a average hand that may or may not be best, and then leading the turn for a smaller bet than what the opponent would have done if he does fire two bullets.

This hand is a classic example of the reasons why i am forever saying that sitting with only 100 BBs at a cash table is never deep enough for proper poker after the flop. if you are check calling his turn bet, than you have to check call his river bet because the 7 changes nothing. and you are now in danger of getting stacked or crippled, but with 200BBs then you have more chance of getting away from it.

[shozboy1]

george, could you elaborate. I"m sure I didn"t play this hand optimally given all the feedback. What are your views?
Perhaps I should"ve led the turn, and folded to a raise on the turn. Also puts the other guy off balance and may allow me to get free/cheaper showdown.
My thinking at the time of check/calling was to get to showdown without being raised off the hand. I felt on this board my 99 had a fair chance of winning

[George2Loose]

george, could you elaborate. I"m sure I didn"t play this hand optimally given all the feedback. What are your views?
Perhaps I should"ve led the turn, and folded to a raise on the turn. Also puts the other guy off balance and may allow me to get free/cheaper showdown.
My thinking at the time of check/calling was to get to showdown without being raised off the hand. I felt on this board my 99 had a fair chance of winning

Shoz I think you played the hand fine. Check calling 3 streets here is probably optimal. I don"t play much cash but raising the flop "to find out where you are" only forces better hands to call or worse hands to fold. If your opponent is capable he may 4 bet AK or worse and bluff you off the best hand. He may even turn 77 or 88 into a bluff on the flop.

Also saying things like "if you call the turn you have to call river" is just plain wrong. This is pokers and a 4 street game. Saying the 7 changed nothing so you have to call river is incorrect. If villian has Aces he could just as easily play the hand the same way. You should call turn and probs call river however if you feel that your opponent isn"t capable of bluffing here then a fold is fine.

Agree with previous poster also that you need to talk about your tendencies and opponents tendencies when you post a hand up.

[shozboy1]

thanks