OPINIONS ON SHOWING CARDS

[WASP]

Agree with Paulie.....lets make this an APAT rule.

Why? You can do it anyway within the rules, it is just practiced little

It is very bad form to do this, people know this, still do it (and think its clever!)

Shows a lack of class IMO just like slowrolling and doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.

[cincicrappykid]

let it go now eh ffs

[deanp27]

way i approach it is like this:

I bet my busted 4 hi flush draw on the river and get called. I announce "you are good" and muck, effectively awarding you the pot - i"d be pretty fed up if someone then went on to ask to see my cards. Yeah by strict letter of the law you can see them but it is generally considered to be bad etiquette and i wouldn"t do it to someone else. If you call and want to know what someone has, wait for him to announce his hand as he is first to speak at showdown.

I am not in favour of changing showdown rules and there are certainly easier ways of collusion than getting all the way to showdown before mucking your hand, you can easily chipdump by investing a high % of your stack before folding.

if people want to constantly insist on seeing mucked cards the game is not likely to flow well.

as a side note - i hate it when people reveal 1 card to try and take a pot and take ages before revealing the second one.

I"d think people would be more trusting and observe etiquette/good practice in APAT events due to their welcoming nature , but seems not to be the case in comparison to other events i play.

[JamieCarra]

The only time you should be able to ask to see a persons hand is if there is a suspicion of chip dumping.  Asking for any other reason other than that just slows the game down and make the bluffer embarrassed enough that they won"t try something similar (ie, do not tap the glass)

Somebody mentioned earlier on that they wanted to see a persons hand to know what they were playing, surely you should be able to use the information gained from him mucking, together with the previous betting patterns and board texture to be able to come to a fairly reliable conclusion on this anyway?

As for a rule where all hands have to be turned over at showdown, that is just plain ridiculous, if I call somebody down with bottom pair and am shown the nuts then why should I have to turn my hand up and let them know I"m calling down light?

[BOINGBLITZ]

Dean...you say "I am not in favour of changing showdown rules".......so why get upset if someone asks to see ?
That IS THE RULE !

[Marty719]

It IS also frowned upon.

There is no need to change the rules as ppl have the right if suspicious of collusion so this rule protects from it.  It is not there to gather info.

[MintTrav]

I prefer "show & take", especially if I have bet light, but it"s because I don"t want to give information, not because of embarrassment. Marty - I don"t understand why you are so embarrassed. If you don"t think your bet was a bad play, why are you embarrassed by it? If you made a bad call of my bet, you may be embarrassed about your play and wish to muck but if you bet a busted flush draw because you believed it to be the correct play, why are you such a sensitive soul about it? BTW, bombing the thread with the same post doesn"t win the argument.

doing a monkey dance when you river suckout.

A real example of poor behaviour - people who act like they have outplayed you when they get lucky. Goes along with shouting for cards you don"t deserve or celebrating when someone else has been knocked out.

[Marty719]

Embarass is undoubtedly the wrong word.  My point is that the rule was not made for you to "gain info" so its bad etiquette to use it as such.  I am hugely surprised this does not fit in the apat ethos which ppl pride themselves on (rightly so).  If ur gng to do it and think thr is nothing wrong with it, keep doing it...but dnt b surprised wen ppl get pissed off at u and go all out for slow-roll based vengence

The facts are:
1-it is within the rules
2-the rule was designed to stop collusion
3-it is highly frowned upon to do for other reasons

Edit: also - I"m not trying to "win an argument."  Im actually trying to inform you of what the general thoughts are about the etiquette in this situation.  U of course r free to take it or leave it, and judging by your posts, Im assuming you will leave it.

[MintTrav]

Er, read it again - I said I prefer Show & Take.

Anyway, no need for us all to try to reinvent the wheel. It"s all explained here how things should work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ

[deanp27]

Dean...you say "I am not in favour of changing showdown rules".......so why get upset if someone asks to see ?
That IS THE RULE !

people are talking about introducing an APAT rule where all all cards have to be turned over at showdown regardless, that was the rule change i was referring to and i oppose it.

[keith101]

Er, read it again - I said I prefer Show & Take.

Anyway, no need for us all to try to reinvent the wheel. It"s all explained here how things should work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ

so according to this video if someout bets and you call on the river if they then muck their hand you dont have to show yours i think this is better rather having to show your hand to win the pot if the other person has mucked their hand because that is one of my pet hates i call someone down to see if they 3 barrelled with air then they muck and ask to see my cards

[deanp27]

generally in the UK you have to table your hand (both cards) to take a pot even if the other guy mucks. They changed this in the recent Stars UKIPT i played in where they stated you didn"t have to show your hand to claim the pot if the other guy mucks.

[Paulie_D]

Embarass is undoubtedly the wrong word.  My point is that the rule was not made for you to "gain info" so its bad etiquette to use it as such.  I am hugely surprised this does not fit in the apat ethos which ppl pride themselves on (rightly so).  If ur gng to do it and think thr is nothing wrong with it, keep doing it...but dnt b surprised wen ppl get pissed off at u and go all out for slow-roll based vengence

The facts are:
1-it is within the rules
2-the rule was designed to stop collusion
3-it is highly frowned upon to do for other reasons

Edit: also - I"m not trying to "win an argument."  Im actually trying to inform you of what the general thoughts are about the etiquette in this situation.  U of course r free to take it or leave it, and judging by your posts, Im assuming you will leave it.

For clarification, a quick run through of the APAT tournament rules has nothing on asking for cards to be shown. The only reference to turning hands over is when a player is all-in.

In addition, you must show both cards to take the pot.

As such, there is no confirmation that asking is either inside or outside of the rules.

I would expect players to treat each other with respect (in the APAT spirit) and refrain from asking but I realise that there are some players who don"t agree with that.

So, either we have a rule that all cards are shown at any showdown regardless or, if that"s not palatable, a rule that says you CAN"T ask to see UNLESS you suspect collusion (the purpose of the rule). If that"s the case, you should be able to justify to the floor/TD why you think the player was colluding and with whom.



I just re-read the OP and it doesn"t specifically mention APAT, it was more of a general question, so, perhaps, we"ve drifted from the topic at hand.

In which case, my bad!  

[TheSnapper]

so according to this video if someout bets and you call on the river if they then muck their hand you dont have to show yours i think this is better rather having to show your hand to win the pot if the other person has mucked their hand because that is one of my pet hates i call someone down to see if they 3 barrelled with air then they muck and ask to see my cards

This^^^
Dealers in most casinos will want to see a hand to pass the pot even if you hold the only remaining live hand, and I see how the collusion element comes into it, but, it might not be so irritating if you could just claim the pot without having to show in this spot.

[Marty719]

Yea it def got a teeny bit derailed but i def think its important.

"rule that says you CAN"T ask to see UNLESS you suspect collusion (the purpose of the rule). If that"s the case, you should be able to justify to the floor/TD why you think the player was colluding and with whom."

I think tht would be a really good addition to APAT rules.  Wud b good to have written confirmation.