Another JJ hand!

[shozboy1]

This is a cash game hand played. I was dealt JJ and am up against a villain who"d only been sat at the table 7 hands. This was the 1st hand he played. I"ve left out what I did on the turn so to allow others to chip in on the best play...

PokerStars Game #40368322229:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/02/26 21:23:52 WET [2010/02/26 16:23:52 ET]
Table "Auravictrix II" 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: shozboy ($50.85 in chips)
Seat 2: jlewis10748 ($105.25 in chips)
Seat 3: djordjevic s ($21.15 in chips)
Seat 4: madlaxlefty ($78.20 in chips)
Seat 5: Vipercheers ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 7: zbpoker ($50 in chips)
Seat 9: ricecooka972 ($50 in chips)
Vipercheers: posts small blind $0.25
zbpoker: posts big blind $0.50
Buckiz09: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shozboy [ ]
ricecooka972: folds
shozboy: raises $1 to $1.50
jlewis10748: folds
djordjevic s: folds
madlaxlefty: folds
Vipercheers: folds
zbpoker: raises $4 to $5.50
shozboy: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [ ]
zbpoker: bets $6
shozboy: calls $6
*** TURN *** [ ] []
zbpoker: bets $12

[WYoung83]

 No reads on the opponent and i would of just have flatted his repop pre flop, it kind of disguises your hand and you are crushing hands like and slightly in front of AK for now, but of course way behind to bigger pairs. So on the flop i think i would use my position as an advantadge by repoping him to $16 or so, if he shoves on this board i think we should assume he had a higher pair most of the time (i dont know if he is capable of getting crazy with AK) and maybe i would fold, which would still leave 60% of my stack, the trouble comes when he fires the 2nd barrell on a good turn for jacks, its very unlikly to have helped him unless he was standard c betting with 88 or AK of clubs, if i cant lay down an over pair on turn then i shouldnt flat call because too much of my stack is in the pot now for the river and i think im just going to shove remaining stack in the middle.

Im not a good cash game player, thats why i come on this thread to see how others play their problem hands, but i understand that i would rather put pressure on opponent rather than pot commit myself on turn and have to fold on the river.

[TheSnapper]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from >>FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP1) ($50.85)
MP2 ($105.25)
CO ($21.15)
Button ($78.20)
SB ($29.50)
BB ($50)
UTG ($50)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J
1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, 4 folds, BB raises to $5.50, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($11.25) 6, 9, 2 (2 players)
BB bets $6, Hero calls $6

Turn: ($23.25) 8 (2 players)
BB bets $12

Total pot: $23.25

This is how the hand presents when converted at FTR ( link is top right) Imho much easier to disect in this format.

A small thing is your open raise size. From early and mid positions make it $1.75, a PSB, and in the CO and BTN when you"re raising lighter, more often, and having to fold more to 3bets its profitable to reduce your raise size to $1.50.

So no reads on villain and vice versa! calling the 3 bet ip is standard but with a plan as to how you proceed i.e. not stacking off with just an overpair. A nice flop for JJ but raising is bad, you will fold out hands you beat etc etc.

i think i would use my position as an advantadge by repoping him to $16 or so, if he shoves on this board i think we should assume he had a higher pair most of the time (i dont know if he is capable of getting crazy with AK) and maybe i would fold, which would still leave 60% of my stack, the trouble comes when he fires the 2nd barrell on a good turn for jacks, its very unlikly to have helped him unless he was standard c betting with 88 or AK of clubs

Positional advantage means we don"t have to raise the flop, when we call he must act first on the turn and in many ways a flat call is way stronger. So with no reads I think calling is best with a view to folding to a reasonable turn bet. If the pot gets big we are most likely behind.

On the turn the villain bets full pot into an unknown. I definately fold.

[shozboy1]

Ok, the turn bet was half pot here though

[TheSnapper]

Ok, the turn bet was half pot here though

oops missed that. Wow thats tough, looks a scared blocker type bet. The thing is though, I would think you"re still behind and the flush has either scared him or, less often, hit him. Against some it is a great spot to bluff raise all in, but you cant know if he"s capable of folding. Getting 3/1 and unlikely to face a bet on the river unless he has a monster I may make a crying call but not liking the spot just the same.

[noble1]

Ok shoz ,
i"m not a fan of flatting in position versus a 3bet from the blinds at this buy in with no reads, mostly i"d 4bet here and look to stack off if villain 5bets all in , i think with a random at this buy in,there position in blinds [7handed] then Jacks is ok to get jiggy, aggression aggression shoz , if villain has it then c"est la vie, if he just flats a 4bet then stack off all non ace/king flops imho ..

As played
meh flop , if u rr he folds all bluff hands and only continues with over pairs , flush draws is a maybe but his cbet sizing and the fact he cbets [randoms i find tend to like check raising there FD,not a hard fast rule to go by but mostly true lol] suggests to me he has whiffed or has an over pair, lol its one of those flop textures that villains totally miss or have u beat so generally now i think the best line is to flat and see a turn card and ""re-evaluate""
Turn - 1/2 pot spew again , my logic says a random player with a over pair would of bet more flop and turn , flush is a maybe still but the way villain has sized his bets sways me to think Ace or king of clubs with another non club in his hand and the chump is now betting a FD or its total bluff bo##ocks , SO RE-RAISE all in, equity equity shoz and if u are lucky villain will brain fart and make a crying call ..............

[Marty719]

Please do not re-raise all in!!!!!!!!!!!

By raising all in, all we achieve is fold all worse hands and get called by better.  We also fold out any barrelling air in his range.  If we think his line is fos, then flatting is the best option and then c/c the river.  We always want to allow our opponents to make mistakes.  Shoving just enables him to play perfectly.

fwiw, I fold the turn.

[noble1]

u willl be making a mistake by calling turn if villain is on a FD which to me is pretty much obvious giving the bet sizing,  btw villain does not rep anything that beats us pretty much most of the time here imo .. if villain is on a FD he has put enough $$ in the pot now to spazz off to a re-raise , as we have no reads we do not know if he trys to goof off with air on the river if he misses his FD ..all in which makes calling the turn totally the wrong choice imho....

[shozboy1]

This hand was a while ago. I defintely recall raising all in on the turn and getting called by some junk. I think he had A9 with Ace clubs in his hand - river bricked so I took it down. Was anyways wanting views on how it was played

[UKChamp]

Im not overly worried about the flush turn given that villains range for such made hands is very thin (AKs/AQs).

In order of events as they happen, how do I read the 3b oop preflop:
1)Bigger pair looking for value
2)Unmade hand not wanting to see flop oop
3)Medium pair 99-JJ not wanting to see overcards

To my mind there is enough value in those three options (number of combos for unpaired hands taken into acccount) that a flat is the best line. True we dont like many overcards on the flop but equally we have position and can control pot size, plus 4b pre definatley folds out weaker hands.

At this point what does villain put us on, assuming he is a std reg. At this juncture we can only really have a JJ+AK+ range here without prior knowledge. Maybe in the extreme we have mined smaller pairs but given the stack size there is limited value in doing so.

Flop bet of 50% is somewhat weak as is the second barrel. Given that raising the flop looses weaker hands and I am loathed to give a cheap turn, I am leaning towards a shove on the turn, flatting just bring too many river scare cards and when you have flatted pre you have to play all of his range.

Its a marginal situation at best in my opinion but enough people overplay AK/TT in that position that there is value in calling down flop and shoving turn. Versus a tight opponenet you may even fold out a non club QQ/KK but obviously this is pretty unlikely but you cant underestimate how strong your call is pre given that someone has 3b an utg raiser.

[Marty719]

Noble, u wrote tht u think his turn range is either total air or a flush draw. Villain has enough back to fold any flush draw (we cnt just assume he is bad enough to stack off). If this is his perceived range thn calling is a superior option as it allows us to maximise value. In cash - our aim is to maximise value. In a tournament - survival is a bigger concept so we may feel we can shove for protection on the turn. Also IMHO turn is still a fold.

[noble1]

total air no reads he probably does not 3barrel...
flush draw he has put in 1/2 his stack,and u think at 0.25/0.50 they dont spazz off to a rr , why call when we are ahead?? and allow him a cheap river card,with a possible 2overs and FD? this is not the best way to get value marty..
You really need to stop feeling the need to be right, as opposed to offering a logical counterpoint or argument..
If we only call turn, he"s probably going to play perfectly, meaning he"ll fold every worst hand on the river but never any better hands.

Versus a tight opponenet you may even fold out a non club QQ/KK

[shozboy1]

I agree with you noble about 3betting all in on the turn - which is what I did. I dont mind my call in position of the 3bet pfr though to be honest. If I come over top of his preflop 3bet and he moves all in, I"m now committed to putting 100ish BBs in with JJ. I"m probably not going to be good alot of the time. I first have to pray I"m flipping, with that prayer answered, I then have to pray I win the race!