First out in Swansea - Hand advice needed!

[deanp27]

peeling this hand OTB in this sort of tourney is fine imo

[Mikeyboy9361]

peeling this hand OTB in this sort of tourney is fine imo

Snap.

[showdown]

With a single opponent and having the nuts on the turn, is jamming on the turn here in the long run going to result in -EV?  Yes the river was a bad card and cost me my tournament, retrospectively, it should have been an easy lay down, but in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.

I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.

Many thanks to those who have replied though, very insightful!

[Swinebag]

the trouble with flatting the turn is that there are too many cards that will come on the river that will kill your action (rather than ones that outdraw you). That is why it is best to get them in on the turn for value

[noble1]

to call AJs pre is ok otb when there 3 others in the pot , but what do we want to hit? personally unless i flop 2pair or better then i"m pretty wary with it for obv reasons.
Early on for implied odds otb here i"d play my suited aces , pairs and suited connectors and the 1 gappers obv , hands with good implied odds and are easy to get away from [eg if i dont flop well and the action gets jiggy then obv]..I"m not against [3bet] re-raising pre here , we have position and they have have as little info on u as u on them , the 2 callers will unlikely have big hands so with whats in the pot plus blinds then a re-raise to around 1500 will probably be pretty profitable..[not a very low variance option but is still a option imo to squeeze atc]
Folding pre is meh but i wouldnt criticise if u did ... as played . pretty much everyone has said 4bet rrai once he 3bets turn.
WTF he was putting u on to repop u there is lol imo and u shoulda punished him for it...River as played - take a deep breath , roll eyes upwards to the heavens and tell the poker gods exactly how u feel then fold

[deanp27]

i don"t mind flatting the turn and i agree with you. However your initial raise should be a tad bigger imo so that after his raise makes it easier to get stacks in on the turn, or if he flats your flop raise you can get more on a safe river

[cincicrappykid]

With a single opponent and having the nuts on the turn, is jamming on the turn here in the long run going to result in -EV?  Yes the river was a bad card and cost me my tournament, retrospectively, it should have been an easy lay down, but in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.

I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.

Many thanks to those who have replied though, very insightful!

wot i said then  

[noble1]

in these spots where I cannot be re-drawn by a flush or a better straight, I would want to keep my player in the hand to extract the most value.

I personally think my play on the turn was OK but bad call on the river with the paired board.

Many thanks to those who have replied though, very insightful!

flatting the turn would be ok if only 1 opponent maybe with reads but you had 2 players showing interest on the turn , the orignal raiser has just led into 3 others with position on himself so personally i would weigh his range more towards sets and 2 pairs [maybe AJ same as u] his action fits QQ [king flop , F##K check , turn yippee i hit my set] or QT or 44 , the callers range is a tad wider so i cannot see any merit to calling turn...

[noble1]

i was trying to think how re-raising the turn could be put from thought to words/writing.When we have the nuts,you can get away with fast playing on the turn imho we should not ever mind narrowing our opponents range to only his strongest holdings because we can beat those hands and they can pay us off big.If the pot represents a good percentage of our stack it is worth the risk of protecting aggressively even if villains hands have only 15to25% equity.The problem i try to work on within my own game is knowing when to take my hand to showdown against a range that i can profit from when i have less strong hands eg top pair/over pair hands versus possible draws in villains ranges..The problem for me is knowing when to play medium strength hands flop onwards in such a way that i keep in villains hands weaker than mine but by not showing to much strength as to i only get action from stronger ones and fold out all weaker or get bluffed off the better hand etc etc by getting bet at so big i find it difficult to call.

meh just some random thoughts that met get u thinking , this thread got me thinking [good i suspose?]

[showdown]

@Noble1 - Thanks for the detailed comments, there was a lot to think about there.  With regards the turn and the other opponents, the villain had raised from first position and player 2 had folded when it got to me, so it was do I keep him around by flatting or go for the shove.  I must admit I did consider both at the time, and looking back and considering everyone"s opinion, I would have made the raise bigger on the turn and given the stacks remaining and the pot probably got all the chips in there and then, then *bleeped* the river and gone straight to the bar.

I guess the big learning point for me here is I think I saw the jackpot before weighing all the options.  I wrote off QQ in my initial thinking on the day, but you"re probably right, he did fit his move, of checking the flop then waking up on the turn.  So the board pairing on the river should have been a giant neon sign with "DANGER DANGER" written on it.

I think perhaps I was destined to lose this one.  Even when he had K10 for 2 pair would he have laid down to a shove on the turn?  Maybe, but who knows.....

Once again thanks for everyone"s comments

[deanp27]

just to clarify, when i say flat the turn i don"t mean flatting the original 600 bet i mean flatting the 3bet to 2600.

[fraac]

I think perhaps I was destined to lose this one.  Even when he had K10 for 2 pair would he have laid down to a shove on the turn?  Maybe, but who knows....

I know he would"ve folded if you 3bet preflop.

[showdown]

I know he would"ve folded if you 3bet preflop.

I think I should have been in the toilet and saved myself any kind of decision....

[BOINGBLITZ]

We had mountains of discussions about hands like this over the weekend. But when that 2nd 10 hits and he jams it all-in, if you ask yourself the question "What am I beating?" then think you are behind yet STILL CALL, then that is the worse play ever.......though we have all made it !
 The best part of live poker is that you have the time to make these tough decisions and think them through and you dont get that online. Try to go back over the hand in your head and when you put him on a hand, ask yourself if you wouldve played that hand the way he did. If the story he is telling doesn"t seem to add up, then you should call.
 You did play this badly though. His bet of  600, which gets one call and then when you raise to 1600 and HE then goes to 2600, it screams either a set or 2 pair (BOTH of which you are ahead of) or at worst, he has the same hand as you.
 Therefore, you get all your chips in like s..t off a shovel !
The fact that he hits on the river is irrelevant to your play in pushing. If you play a hand correctly and lose, then you can"t beat yourself up about it. On this occasion though you played it poorly IMO as you shouldve shoved on the turn and passed on the river.
 By the way.......if you are playing against Steve Bayliff or Dan Owston, IGNORE EVERYTHING I JUST SAID !!

[pompeytone]

Some interesting posts here so for one of my first posts on this forum i thought i"d chip in.

Leigh, you didnt know him or the way in which he plays so all you had left was the strength of your hand.
When the Q comes on the turn you have the nuts and cannot be beaten so i think the best play available to you here is, as many have already said, to shove when re-raised. Regardless of what happens after this you can say " i made the right decision".
Now in retrospect when you have played until the river you have to ask yourself a couple of questions, What is my opponents style of play and my tournament life is on the line and lastly, he raised on the turn with what that would cause him to put his tournament life on the line. He surely knew you were very strong as he asked the question on the turn, so therefore probably already knew he would get paid off.
The reason i think you posted here is because of that age old question we have all asked ourselves many times before "How did i get myself into this situation again"
Chalk it up to experience and a teaspoon-full of bad luck.

Bring on London where i hope to meet you all for the first time.