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TheSnapper

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« on: April 23, 2010, 16:54:46 PM »
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 16:58:05 PM by TheSnapper »
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

deanp27

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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 17:14:25 PM »
ok you probably don"t want preflop analysis but i"ll give it anyway. i actually think you chose the worst option pre given stack sizes. I often raise to isolate the terrible UTG limper but folding is probably more viable, basically because you are always going to be in a pickle with 2nd pair or a draw like this post flop and bluffing fish in a 4 way pot is tough.

Anyway, without being results orientated i think i would check behind flop. When you bet you should be prepared to face a raise or call and know what your plan is for that or the next street. I think if you bet this you should go with the hand and get all your chips in, despite it being obvious that you aren"t in great shape. You have them covered with c10-12bbs if you lose the hand. Also you may not be in terrible shape vs the sb if he comes along, he could have a draw or 6x which could create a small side pot.

i"d ship as played but checking flop and folding pre are both viable as well if you are not comfortable raising from the button with these players. Also if you were intending to bet/fold flop then bet smaller (say 3k), they won"t notice.
Looking forward to making my first day 2

AMRN

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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 18:04:25 PM »
fold pre - not the best of spots to get involved... would prefer to raise as a steal here, but if you can"t see them folding, then folding yourself is probably the better option.

check in position on the flop and take the free turn card - keeps the pot under control, and if you turn the straight you are well disguised.

If you are going to bet this flop, you have to be prepared to ship the lot.


noble1

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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 04:47:14 AM »
as played upto flop with the stack sizes,your hand strength and the player types etc check flop and plan to make a delayed bet on the turn , if opponents show no interest..If u do pick up a hand of some sort say a pair of 7"s or 8"s on the turn you can still bet out and get mediocre hands to call the turn [the 5"s or 6"s,flush draws] , by betting this flop if u were only called then with this stack size you end up mostly checking the turn anyhows and can hand villians potentially the initiative back on the river as they are 1st to act.... if u bet/semi bluff turn and only get called and they check river and u have whiffed all outs then u still have the option to bluff or give up or showdown cheap if u hit a 7 or 8.... think about it  :)

Flop bet is to much imho anyhooos.. :)
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I think a bet gets through often enough
then 1/2 pot for instance will be just as effective, 3 loose opponents to bet into on a king high 2suit flop hmmm :)
nufff said  ;)

LongshanksED

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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 15:22:03 PM »
Fold pre,

check flop in position and be wary if a 3rd spade falls if it completes your straight!

but as played I"d be getting it in here now as the last 4k of the BB will be going in anyway on the turn and you can"t fold for 4k on the turn. Your shove may force out SB who could just be on a flush draw

TheSnapper

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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 15:15:41 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.


ok you probably don"t want preflop analysis but i"ll give it anyway. i actually think you chose the worst option pre given stack sizes. I often raise to isolate the terrible UTG limper but folding is probably more viable, basically because you are always going to be in a pickle with 2nd pair or a draw like this post flop and bluffing fish in a 4 way pot is tough.


Obviously that the hand is posted, I"m not sure about how I played the hand. I am a little suprised at the emphatic and unanimous fold pf but probably should"nt be. The thought process behind decisions are the key for me so lets go through how I got myself into this mess.

The play was largely to an abysmal standard.
It was 10 mins into level 800/1500 and shallow, next level ridiculously so.
I had come to the final table with a healthy stack but had"nt seen a hand in some time and possibly took to long to suss out the new players.
I needed to play some hands.
Stealing was not not an option.
If I iso raised lite a cbet would close to pot commit versus 50% of stacks.
Essentially it was a show down the best hand scenario.

The hand, utg limps and the decent players fold. I"m on the button with  8h 7c and unlikely to face a raise behind. I"m really confident that a raise here will get at least two callers, either of the villains in the blinds will call for sure and utg then wont fold to the added value. That leaves fold or call as options. Fold is fine but does nothing to arrest my decline to a 10bb stack. Calling is out of line for sure and maybe impatient but we are under pressure now, probably my last button with a stack that has more than two options.

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anyway, without being results orientated i think i would check behind flop. When you bet you should be prepared to face a raise or call and know what your plan is for that or the next street. I think if you bet this you should go with the hand and get all your chips in, despite it being obvious that you aren"t in great shape. You have them covered with c10-12bbs if you lose the hand. Also you may not be in terrible shape vs the sb if he comes along, he could have a draw or 6x which could create a small side pot.


Did contemplate checking behind but could"nt resist a stab at the orphaned pot, again, probably impatience.



then 1/2 pot for instance will be just as effective,


Great point duly noted.



If you are going to bet this flop, you have to be prepared to ship the lot.



We have 3 possible opponents when we bet, their flop stacks behind are, 34.5K, 8.5K, 16.5K. Are you shipping against all of them?



« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 15:23:46 PM by TheSnapper »
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

AMRN

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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 16:41:46 PM »



If you are going to bet this flop, you have to be prepared to ship the lot.



We have 3 possible opponents when we bet, their flop stacks behind are, 34.5K, 8.5K, 16.5K. Are you shipping against all of them?


Yes. My point is that by betting out on the flop you are pretty much pot committed... I just don"t think you are deep enough here to raise/fold.


noble1

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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2010, 01:01:20 AM »
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We have 3 possible opponents when we bet, their flop stacks behind are, 34.5K, 8.5K, 16.5K. Are you shipping against all of them?


please do not be prepared to stack off if all 3 villains ship , yes u would be 2to1 on your money but if so many were interested in this flop then with reverse implied odds plus if u were to factor in ICM [if we knew other stack sizes] then it is a definite fold imo especially with utg covering , to potentially go out with an m of 12 on a oesd is not good...

I know u dismiss the idea of an steal but with utg limping imo u want him out of the pot if u want to gamble and up the gears so raise it pre and make use of any FE that u have [u will have some, even some of the worst players would of noticed u folding all this time upto now] if u make it 6000 pre and the blinds ship and utg moves outta the way then u have the odds [ish , slim positive cEV] to gamble , if utg ships then easy fold and even then when the blinds go up you have a perfect stealing stack for push/fold poker..
You could fold if u wish to do so , u have only put in 6000 [17% of stack] which leaves enough to work with , and get 1 more step towards the payouts... your stack in this level and the next would now be in the Re-Steal Zone: 8M-12M so change of strategy first in the pot push or use it by re-shoving over the top of loose open raisers/limpers etc...