opinions on this hand please

[deanp27]

blinds at 5k/10k/1k ante.

   UTG - a decent player flat calls with only 37k behind him.

he might be decent but may need to polish up his short stack skills

[cincicrappykid]

LOL BLATANT BRAG POST SO SAD

[AMRN]

The UTG limper......FOLDS !!!......he had A-J and left himself with just 37k !!

The short-stack shows A-10 and the monster stack, who I folded J-J to had..........Q-Q.

Board came K-7-6-4-Q and so instead of being out in 8th, I lived to fight another day.

I got down to 5-handed where we did a deal that gave us all £2k and we then played for the remaining £2090.

With 4 left I re-shoved into the (still) big-stack with........wait for it.......J-J and he called with A-2.......Flop is 2-A-4 and so J-J knocks me out anyway !!
 Consolation was the deal as 4th wouldv"e paid £1260. I thought it was a massive error on the part of the guy who brokered it as he was chip-leader and never once mentioned doing a deal that related to chip-counts.

 Appreciate the feedback guys, as always.  

thing is, I knew this outcome of the hand, but still maintained my position as to have claimed differently would just be results oriented.

I still say calling is the +EV option.... OK, this time the big stack happened to have something near the top end of his range, but his range is substantially wide enough that JJ is generally in good shape.... and given the other action, he may also be short of overcard outs.  The range and holding of the short stacks are irrelevant, other than the fact that they could be taking outs away from the big stack.

[manchestercarl]

thing is, I knew this outcome of the hand, but still maintained my position as to have claimed differently would just be results oriented.

I still say calling is the +EV option.... OK, this time the big stack happened to have something near the top end of his range, but his range is substantially wide enough that JJ is generally in good shape.... and given the other action, he may also be short of overcard outs.  The range and holding of the short stacks are irrelevant, other than the fact that they could be taking outs away from the big stack.
[/quote]

Not sure I agree with this^^^

My take would be that it is fair to assume the general table consensus is that the initial limper is "a decent player" (as was the opinion of the op).  I would therefore be inclinded to think that the majority of the table put the initial limpers range as "probably a monster, but at the very least committed to a "gamble".

This is then followed by a push all-in.

After this action, I don"t think the big stack would be attempting to isolate... I would have to think that the big stack has woken up with a monster (of which qq and AK are the very bottom of his range)

JJ is now a small to middling pair and a very quick pass for me

[AMRN]

thing is, I knew this outcome of the hand, but still maintained my position as to have claimed differently would just be results oriented.

I still say calling is the +EV option.... OK, this time the big stack happened to have something near the top end of his range, but his range is substantially wide enough that JJ is generally in good shape.... and given the other action, he may also be short of overcard outs.  The range and holding of the short stacks are irrelevant, other than the fact that they could be taking outs away from the big stack.

Not sure I agree with this^^^

My take would be that it is fair to assume the general table consensus is that the initial limper is "a decent player" (as was the opinion of the op).  I would therefore be inclinded to think that the majority of the table put the initial limpers range as "probably a monster, but at the very least committed to a "gamble".

This is then followed by a push all-in.

After this action, I don"t think the big stack would be attempting to isolate... I would have to think that the big stack has woken up with a monster (of which qq and AK are the very bottom of his range)

JJ is now a small to middling pair and a very quick pass for me

so if you were a mahoosive stack in late position, and two micro-stacks get all in (assume the limper is putting the rest in).... and you look down at a small/medium pair, you wouldn"t fancy taking the gamble to knock out two players, knowing that losing the hand wouldn"t do you any material damage? The only way you can play in this spot though is to isolate as any kind of funky flat call invites the shove from behind.

I think that reading his range as only QQ/AK/KK/AA is way to restrictive.

[manchestercarl]

so if you were a mahoosive stack in late position, and two micro-stacks get all in (assume the limper is putting the rest in).... and you look down at a small/medium pair, you wouldn"t fancy taking the gamble to knock out two players, knowing that losing the hand wouldn"t do you any material damage? The only way you can play in this spot though is to isolate as any kind of funky flat call invites the shove from behind.

I think that reading his range as only QQ/AK/KK/AA is way to restrictive.
[/quote]

No if the above case I would probably get involved (push)... I would also probably get involved if, with the action as descibed there wasnt a 150k stack sat in the big blind and still to act.

The initial limper is committed to the had (or should have been) and in effect by limping is implying a monster, therefore the initial shovers range is now smaller than if he was facing a "shove".  As a monster stack, after this action, I am now not getting involved with anything other than a monster hand, especially as the 150k stack (big blind) is still to act (and they are only person who can do me any real damage).

[deanp27]

well i normally say call when everyone else says pass...

anyway i think calling with JJ is acceptable but just think with one massive stack and loads of shorties we can can use our stack to better effect, especially as we don"t have the chip monster acting after us. Better spots blah blah...especially when blinds are high against relative stack sizes we may be able push our preflop edge more

we are unlikely to be in great shape in this spot - we lose main pot but win vs CL and we have marginally more than we started with but shover has equal our stack, we could go out obviously to CL or we could win the hand but still be second to the CL.

sure they both may turn over underpairs or both have AK - but that is wishful thinking and ranges are usually tighter in the live pokerz, especially on final tables.

[deanp27]

also after winning this hand the CL must have had a real blow up to consider even chopping with the rest of you

[BOINGBLITZ]

When we did the deal Dean, HE was NO LONGER the chip-leader (Though he did finish 2nd - they eventually chopped the remaining £2k ) If I had been in that situation and was offered a deal, I would"e said yes, but took stacks into account when doing so.
 Having said that, though I haven"t played against him before, he was not only a very decent chap, but a VERY good player too.