Folding Kings pre flop

[swordfish]

If you run into AA the results are the same except you get home much later.

I was originally marginally in the fold camp, but this line has turned me into a caller!  Great line!

In response to whoever said Harrington said never fold Kings pre-flop...Sklansky says he thinks it is very wrong to call with Kings in this situation in his Tournament Poker for Advanced Players book.  For every action etc...

There is no right answer.  Only wrong ones in my case.

[Jon MW]

If you run into AA the results are the same except you get home much later.

I was originally marginally in the fold camp, but this line has turned me into a caller!  Great line!

In response to whoever said Harrington said never fold Kings pre-flop...Sklansky says he thinks it is very wrong to call with Kings in this situation in his Tournament Poker for Advanced Players book.  For every action etc...

There is no right answer.  Only wrong ones in my case.

So you"d rather pay your entry fee for a few minutes play rather than a few hours play?

[kinboshi]

Just remembered - second hand of the EPT event I played in Copenhagen, I was dealt KK.

Early position raise (obviously with a table full of Scandies), and it was folded round to me, and so I re-raised. 

If he"d pushed all-in here, I would have folded quicker than the queue forms behind Des at the bar.

Incidentally, he actually called, and I check-raised an all-club flop and he folded.  

[Mikeyboy9361]

You remember this now!!

[kinboshi]

Yes, I was thinking to myself if the standard and buy-in of the tournament would affect my thinking and action in this situation. 

I"d play it the same way in an APAT national event as I would in an EPT event.  The tournament buy-in shouldn"t matter to your actions, the fact that the tournament is a "one off" (as the EPT was in my case, I won"t be playing one of them again unless I"m lucky enough to qualify for one through a sat), etc. 

But I wonder how many on here who said they"d call would do the same if it was the first hand of an EPT event?  You"d certainly be chip leader if you won the hand!  Be a short-lived adventure if you lost.

[nosey-p]

As I said earlier I would call no matter what the buy in/tournament was, be it a $5 STT or a $10.000 WPT

[biffa85]

I think it does matter what the tourny is/buy in. 

I stt online is a very different tourny, and have a far greater range of hands that could/would make this move!

an EPT event, WSOP or even just an APAT national, the range of hands is a lot smaller, and a far higher percentage of the time you would be facing those dreaded aces.

Folding those kings is at worst a small mistake, but one that does not seriously damage your chances of moneying or winning,  whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally

[kinboshi]

Folding those kings is at worst a small mistake, but one that does not seriously damage your chances of moneying or winning,  whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally

That sums up my thoughts perfectly. Why didn"t I just right that earlier?  

[FlyingPig73]

whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally

I think the other way.. .It is a mistake some of the time and correct most of the time to call with them.....

[kinboshi]

whereas calling with those kings is likely to be a huge mistake most of the time and correct only occasionally

I think the other way.. .It is a mistake some of the time and correct most of the time to call with them.....

You think that"s the case calling all-in with them during the first level against players you have no idea how they play?

[FlyingPig73]

Okay, if you are in the fold camp, at what chip stack would you have to have to call with at this point.

Assuming you have lost a pot, so your chips are down form 10,000, and oppo 1 still has 10,000 and moves all in.. What level of chips would you have to have to call..

Would you call with 2000, would you fold,,, would you call with 5000?

[Jon MW]

The original supposition was that you had re-raised to 800.

So I would say I was "pot committed" at this stage if I had 2500 chips.

But if I had 2500 chips left, I wouldn"t have re-raised to 800, I would have re-raised all in.

[kinboshi]

Okay, if you are in the fold camp, at what chip stack would you have to have to call with at this point.

Assuming you have lost a pot, so your chips are down form 10,000, and oppo 1 still has 10,000 and moves all in.. What level of chips would you have to have to call..

Would you call with 2000, would you fold,,, would you call with 5000?

It"s not so much about the absolute size of the stack, but the relative size of the stack compared to the blinds.

It"s the same as people being concerned with the average chip stick and if they match up to it mid-way through a comp.  To me, it"s largely irrelevant.  I"m more concerned about the size of my stack compared to the blinds and ensuring I"m maintaining the ratio as the blinds increase.

As you go through the tournament, you get to understand what sort of players are at your table - so the all-in move pre-flop might indicate a wide (or very narrow) range of hands.  The lack of information very early on is what makes me fold.  As biffa said - my fold might be a small mistake, but I"m looking to avoid making a huge mistake.  Going out early in a tournament is either due to two monster hands colliding post-flop, or people shoving and calling pre-flop.  I don"t mind going out in the first case, but will do my utmost to avoid the second (unless it"s me pushing with AA and I"m outdrawn).  Why put your fate in the hands of lady luck, when you still have the opportunity to dictate it yourself?

If it"s during the first level, and I"m down to 5,000 - I"m still not worried at all.  If I"m down to 2,000, it"s a little different.  I"m looking to double up (as things have obviously gone badly wrong).  But even then, I"d rather be dictating things and be the one pushing rather than calling.

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As an aside - here"s another situation where you have to consider calling all-in for your tournament life:

It"s Day 2 of the EPT event in Copenhagen.  You are fairly short-stacked with 18,000 and the blinds are 600/1,200 with 100 antes.

To your immediate right is the table bully and chip leader.  He"s not shy of shoving all of his chips in, especially when it"s folded round to him in the small blind.

He"s shown that he"s willing to make the push with ATC based solely on his chip stack.

So, my question is what cards do you need to make the call in the big blind when he shoves from the small blind?  

[Swinebag]

I"d call with AA-1010 AKs+o, AQs and maybe worse because I"d be trying to avoid being short stacked and be prepared to risk going out to do that.

This is probably incorrect though and its maybe call with AA or KK only.

[kinboshi]

I"d call with AA-1010 AKs+o, AQs and maybe worse because I"d be trying to avoid being short stacked and be prepared to risk going out to do that.

This is probably incorrect though and its maybe call with AA or KK only.

You"ve selected pretty much the range I had chosen as well. 

When I asked this on the blondepoker forum, some said that I should be calling with a far wider range in order to double up.  Others said I should do my utmost to avoid calling and and look to raise or even shove when I get the opportunity to be first or second into a pot.