Live APAT hand which has been bugging me

[PHIL_TC]

APAT live event at the Vic, last hand before a break, blinds are 200/400 and I have around 8500 in chips

I"m on the button and its folded round to me holding  ah qh. I make it 1600 to go.

I have both the SB and BB covered.

The SB (tight player) pushes all in for just over 7000, and the BB thinks for a while and goes all in as well for around 4K (I thought for value)

Back to me to make a decision... and wishing I"d just gone outside for a cig like the rest of the table...

Any thoughts?

[AMRN]

yuck.

What was your plan when you made the raise? a 4xBB opener is huge (and spewy) if you are planning to fold to a shove.

You state the SB shover with 7k as being tight - by "tight", do you mean he only plays top 5% of hands? If so, then it"s an easy fold..... or do you actually mean "good", in which case it"s an easy call, given that his resteal range will be pretty wide against your button raise.

[PHIL_TC]

yuck.

What was your plan when you made the raise? a 4xBB opener is huge (and spewy) if you are planning to fold to a shove.

You state the SB shover with 7k as being tight - by "tight", do you mean he only plays top 5% of hands? If so, then it"s an easy fold..... or do you actually mean "good", in which case it"s an easy call, given that his resteal range will be pretty wide against your button raise.

My thoughts were to take it down there and then with a large raise.  Feared that a small button raise wouldnt be respected so decided on a 4x.

The "tight" is I believe a mod on here so not sure if that means they"re "good" or not  

Hasnt played any hands but yes would put him as a good player.

[Marty719]

Y do you want to "take it down there" w/ a 21x stack and AQs.  Opening small to induce worse hands to shove is always going to be a better option.  You should get out of the habit of 4x"n any of your range as it just costs you money in the long-run.

As played, call and gamble - you still have sb"s shoving range beaten and bb shud be puttin 10x in wide enough that we are in decent shape.  Side pots ftw.

[PHIL_TC]

Y do you want to "take it down there" w/ a 21x stack and AQs.  Opening small to induce worse hands to shove is always going to be a better option.  You should get out of the habit of 4x"n any of your range as it just costs you money in the long-run.

Agreed.. however wouldn"t I have been in exactly the same situation raising 2-3x? Having raised 4x am I having to gamble whereas if I"d raised smaller could I of got away from this? I"m not sure?

[Marty719]

Y do you want to "take it down there" w/ a 21x stack and AQs.  Opening small to induce worse hands to shove is always going to be a better option.  You should get out of the habit of 4x"n any of your range as it just costs you money in the long-run.

Agreed.. however wouldn"t I have been in exactly the same situation raising 2-3x? Having raised 4x am I having to gamble whereas if I"d raised smaller could I of got away from this? I"m not sure?

Y do you want to get away from it?  W/ 21x and AQs on the button, ur aim is to get the money in.  Raising smaller makes ppl more likely to re-ship a wider range (including a LOT of hands you have crushed).  You always want to increase the illusion of fold equity in this spot.

4x"n is unnecessary and bad in general.  In general if you 4x fold, you could save urself a considerable amount of money by 2.5x"n.  We are also less likely to get called light when we 4x, which means we lose some value from our strong hands.  2.5x"n instead of 4x"n also controls villains 3/b sizing which is obv always a good thing!

[PHIL_TC]

Y do you want to get away from it?  W/ 21x and AQs on the button, ur aim is to get the money in.  Raising smaller makes ppl more likely to re-ship a wider range (including a LOT of hands you have crushed).  You always want to increase the illusion of fold equity in this spot.

With the 2 all in"s to call and for most of my stack I wasnt feeling as confident as when I started with the original raise to be honest.. but then again I"m generally too nitty

[Marty719]

Y do you want to get away from it?  W/ 21x and AQs on the button, ur aim is to get the money in.  Raising smaller makes ppl more likely to re-ship a wider range (including a LOT of hands you have crushed).  You always want to increase the illusion of fold equity in this spot.

With the 2 all in"s to call and for most of my stack I wasnt feeling as confident as when I started with the original raise to be honest.. but then again I"m generally too nitty

We crush sb"s shoving range - If we win that side-pot we pretty much break even.

[PHIL_TC]

Y do you want to get away from it?  W/ 21x and AQs on the button, ur aim is to get the money in.  Raising smaller makes ppl more likely to re-ship a wider range (including a LOT of hands you have crushed).  You always want to increase the illusion of fold equity in this spot.

With the 2 all in"s to call and for most of my stack I wasnt feeling as confident as when I started with the original raise to be honest.. but then again I"m generally too nitty

We crush sb"s shoving range - If we win that side-pot we pretty much break even.

As it turned out we wern"t crushing the SB hand, but my thought process was that we should be ahead.

Sounds like I did the right thing making the call to gamble when it came back to me, just wasnt sure whether the original raise was correct and then whether to make the call or not after the 2 all ins.

Just wasn"t a happy situation.

[Marty719]

Remember, we can still be crushing his range, even if we are not ahead.

[AMRN]

also remember, before you make any action, have a plan for how you will respond to subsequent actions from others. If you are wanting to get all in here with AQs and a 21xBB stack (I certainly would), you would insta-call the shove(s). It sounds like you saw a big hand so made an auto raise, without really thinking about what happens next (hence why you are asking the question). If your plan was to try and steal but then fold to a shove, 2.5x is much cheaper..... but then also you would be turning a premium hand into a bluff.

My line here would probably have been min-raise (or min plus a chip), and hope that either of the blinds senses weakness and 3-bets so I can get all in.

[noble1]

Phil if u read that villains in the blinds will only shove tight top 5% then raise a lot less because they will be folding 90% of the time [.95x.95= 90%] then if the sb shoves then to quote AMRN

If so, then it"s an easy fold

If the sb folds but the bb shoves its a call [ur priced in] , the fact u make it 4x with this stack size pretty much puts your hand face up , medium pairs 88-JJ AK AQ would be a logical most likely range to put u on , sorry but tbh this is a typical tight weak players preflop range that 4x"s.. As played now that sb shoves and bb calls , with a 12600 ish pot its 5400 to call , so ur getting 2.3to1 ish , so 30% equity , if u think they are tight and that they will view your 4x raise as i would then its a fold..
If u think the bb has no idea after seeing this action and will gamble with a range wider than his top 10% then call..

[jbworldwide]

yuck.

What was your plan when you made the raise? a 4xBB opener is huge (and spewy) if you are planning to fold to a shove.

You state the SB shover with 7k as being tight - by "tight", do you mean he only plays top 5% of hands? If so, then it"s an easy fold..... or do you actually mean "good", in which case it"s an easy call, given that his resteal range will be pretty wide against your button raise.

My thoughts were to take it down there and then with a large raise.  Feared that a small button raise wouldnt be respected so decided on a 4x.

The "tight" is I believe a mod on here so not sure if that means they"re "good" or not  

Hasnt played any hands but yes would put him as a good player.

I wouldn"t say he was good, I would say he is solid  

and I wonder if anyone can guess what the hand in the sb was?

[pables]

I knew it was you James, when the word tight was mentioned

[AMRN]

yuck.

What was your plan when you made the raise? a 4xBB opener is huge (and spewy) if you are planning to fold to a shove.

You state the SB shover with 7k as being tight - by "tight", do you mean he only plays top 5% of hands? If so, then it"s an easy fold..... or do you actually mean "good", in which case it"s an easy call, given that his resteal range will be pretty wide against your button raise.

My thoughts were to take it down there and then with a large raise.  Feared that a small button raise wouldnt be respected so decided on a 4x.

The "tight" is I believe a mod on here so not sure if that means they"re "good" or not  

Hasnt played any hands but yes would put him as a good player.

I wouldn"t say he was good, I would say he is solid  

and I wonder if anyone can guess what the hand in the sb was?

OK so now we know who it was in the SB, the hand was obviously AK, or QQ+.    Tight is the word!! (as is good)