theory - how would you play it?

[noble1]

Another hand taken from somewhere else so you can compare your thoughts...

We raise in CO with  qd td , BTN calls. [no reads on villain, assume this is in a cash game which u can apply to most stakes]
Flop comes    ts   6C,TS,9C
We bet, villain calls.
Turn comes   - so the board now looks: - ts 6C,TS,9C,8H
We bet, villain calls.
River comes  qh so the board now looks: -   ts qh 6C,TS,9C,8H,QH
What would u do and why?
Also would anyone play the flop or turn different? if so why,what is your logic/reasoning?


edit - is it me or are these cards sometimes hard to distinguish? lol

[Paulie_D]

There are no amounts given but I"ll assume that"s deliberate to concentrate on the "theory" but I"m unsure on what "theory" you are trying to expound.

To my mind, I"m firing the 3rd barrel and putting him to the test. The board is SO wet I doubt the villain knows where we are and unless he"s found the nuts he can"t raise.

Of course, it"s a bluffable board if he so chooses but I think he would have value raised the turn if he was going to do that.

FWIW, I play it the same way as shown.

[TheSnapper]

Stack sizes are important, I assume full stacks 100 bb".

No reads either, optimum play versus player A may be spew versus player b. That said, I will check this flop almost 100% and calling if villain makes a bet.

Why check flop? Our hand is weak and we may have to fold to a flop raise, usually on this board villains range contains lots of hands that can raise us, sets, two pair,  pair draw combo"s, straight and flush draws.

We weaken our range by checking and more importantly weaken villains range to include bluffs and semi bluffs.

[Paulie_D]

I"m NEVER checking this flop...if i get raised, so be it, I"ll re-evaluate then.

Raising pre, hitting and then checking is way to weak for me.

[duke3016]

OK shoot me but I am all in post flop

[shozboy1]

I think I"d be betting this flop most of the time 50-60% pot.

The turn is a check/call check/check for me.

If the turn goes check/check I may "turn my hand into a bluff" and bet out the river. He can"t call/raise unless he has the goods, or a good read on us, or is a sophisticated opponent capable of a bluff river raise. 

If the turn goes check/call my action would be determined on reads/prev history etc. I"d probably check/call check/check river depending on my/his stack size/reads/prev hands etc etc.

The way its played I can"t see how the turn or river could"ve helped him.

[AMRN]

not too fussed about the lead on both flop and turn, although would tend to check at least one of the streets to keep the pot under control.

A lead on the river is only usually getting called by better hands, and our two pair can"t stand up to any raise on the end, but really wants to get to showdown.... so check/call the river, assuming he doesn"t do some massive overbet looking for value.

[Paulie_D]

A lead on the river is only usually getting called by better hands

I agree with this BUT my earlier point was, absent a Jack...he can only call and he"d have to be pretty confident that WE don"t have a Jack to raise. We minimise a potential loss by leading IMO and maximise our fold equity.

Yes, our hand is now essentially a bluff but we"ve shown strength all the way and our villain has played it pretty passive. Is he letting us build the pot for him....possibly, but I still think with the board texture on the turn he"d have raised for value rather than waiting for a potentially disastrous river.

[AMRN]

A lead on the river is only usually getting called by better hands

I agree with this BUT my earlier point was, absent a Jack...he can only call and he"d have to be pretty confident that WE don"t have a Jack to raise. We minimise a potential loss by leading IMO and maximise our fold equity.

Yes, our hand is now essentially a bluff but we"ve shown strength all the way and our villain has played it pretty passive. Is he letting us build the pot for him....possibly, but I still think with the board texture on the turn he"d have raised for value rather than waiting for a potentially disastrous river.

By leading, we are giving him the chance to bluff raise.... in his position, given that we led every street on this board, he can be fairly safe in his assumption that we are unlikely to show up with a J..... so he knows that a position raise is going to get through most of the time.  However, by checking, unless he overbets, we can get our marginal hand to showdown cheaply.

[TheSnapper]

I"m NEVER checking this flop...if i get raised, so be it, I"ll re-evaluate then.

Raising pre, hitting and then checking is way to weak for me.

Why are you betting, value, bluff, protection?

[TheSnapper]

By leading, we are giving him the chance to bluff raise.... in his position, given that we led every street on this board, he can be fairly safe in his assumption that we are unlikely to show up with a J..... so he knows that a position raise is going to get through most of the time.  However, by checking, unless he overbets, we can get our marginal hand to showdown cheaply.

Its highly unlikely you"ll get raised here as a bluff and if you suspect villain will bluff if you lead, not leading would be a mistake.

[duke3016]

OK shoot me but I am all in post flop

I rest my case

[Paulie_D]

Why are you betting, value, bluff, protection?

Yes.

[TheSnapper]

Why are you betting, value, bluff, protection?

Yes.

Insightful.

[Paulie_D]

Insightful.

Why not all three..., OK well, at least two of the choices? Seriously, I bet because I think I have the best hand, which also gives me value & protection if he calls when behind PLUS I want to represent more strength than I actually have.