Big Stack vs. Blind Structure? - Finding the Sweet Spot

[Paulie_D]

[Marty719]

Would rather more play it later stages than massive starting stack.  Def doesnt auto make it a great tournament.  I dnt see much reason for over 20k s/s assuming 25/50 blinds and more than happy w/ 10k always.

As for antes - the earlier the better!!  Antes make tournament poker a better game!!!!

[furnesspoker]

Our local games, "BRAG" about deepstacks, I do not think there is a game now where there are less than 10k chips, our regular weekly game sees a starting stack of a whopping 30,000. What makes me laugh as well as annoys me, the tournament lasts for 4-5 hours max, I think the size of stack should dictate the length of tournament and amount of play before you need to make moves. In my opinion 10k or more should be the size of stack when playing a 2 day event. I think what everyone has to remember is the fact of the matter is in NL, the chips can go in the middle at anytime so therefore the size of stack is irrelevant however the length of blinds should dictate the playability.
I commented on this the other day and forcast that by the year 2015 local tournaments will have a starting stack of 1 billion with blinds starting at 1 and 2 million.
IMO it seems that stacksize is fast becoming an extension of ones p*n*s (No offence to our lady players who would agree size does not matter!  )

[furnesspoker]

Oh yes, had my rant, now to answer your question.

Stack Size in relation to Blind Size should be set to encourage all types of play. In my humble opinion, first 2 levels of any tournament should be long enough for people to make level 3 without too much confrontation, I like to think of the first two levels as "Getting your moneys worth" after all if your buying into a tournament, you want something for that juice
I am a definate lover of "Gentle Blinds"

[Paulie_D]

Our regular weekly game sees a starting stack of a whopping 30,000.... the tournament lasts for 4-5 hours max

Yeah....buy WHY do they only last that long? Is it because the players just don"t "get" deep-stacked poker or are the blind levels terrible?

I think the size of stack should dictate the length of tournament and amount of play before you need to make moves.

I"m not sure that this is logical...the stack size and blind levels & sizes should determine the length of the tourney.

Although I don"t use it myself..BlindValet offers some good options for creating the blind structure based on everything.

In my opinion 10k or more should be the size of stack when playing a 2 day event.

Well, I wasn"t specifically referring to APAT events...I think they are just fine.

length of blinds should dictate the playability.

And this is my point....what benefit does an extra 20k/30k/50k get you if it"s going to be over in 5 hours anyway?

[Jon MW]

Starting size is largely irrelevant.

I don"t tend to look at structures full stop, but when I do I only really look at how quickly the blinds go up (obv a combination of what the levels are and how quickly they go up).

You need play at the end of a tournament, and for a live tournament you need it at the beginning as well - how you manage to get from one to the other and still end the tournament in a reasonable time is the tricky part.

[MintTrav]

A recent tournament in Portsmouth had 100k starting, with normal blinds - 25-50 starting, 40 min levels. 24 hour game 3pm Sat - 3pm Sun.

Swerved it myself, but I understand there were about 5-6 players still in when it was stopped at 3pm and decided on chip count. And yes.......................there was a player knocked out in the first level.

[furnesspoker]

Our regular weekly game sees a starting stack of a whopping 30,000.... the tournament lasts for 4-5 hours max

Yeah....buy WHY do they only last that long? Is it because the players just don"t "get" deep-stacked poker or are the blind levels terrible?

Blind levels are just stupid to be honest, they start small, but after 3 hours they then cut the clock and double the blinds, in effect the final table ends up being an all in or fold event. The winner is usually the one who steals the most blinds.

I think the size of stack should dictate the length of tournament and amount of play before you need to make moves.

I"m not sure that this is logical...the stack size and blind levels & sizes should determine the length of the tourney.

Sorry, was right in my head, just typed it out wrong. the point I was making was in fact the size of the stack vs the length of blinds, the issue is that a lot of the times when games are advertised as a deepstack, this is negated by the fact that after a set amount of time, the levels rise sharply (in some cases antes added too) so what you gain in the early levels you end up paying for in the later ones, I prefer to sit down at a structure with constant levels, Ie 30 minutes or 1 hour, not to find out at level 8 blinds are up every 15 minutes.

Although I don"t use it myself..BlindValet offers some good options for creating the blind structure based on everything.

In my opinion 10k or more should be the size of stack when playing a 2 day event.

Well, I wasn"t specifically referring to APAT events...I think they are just fine.

Neither was I APAT have got it set right in my opinion.

length of blinds should dictate the playability.

And this is my point....what benefit does an extra 20k/30k/50k get you if it"s going to be over in 5 hours anyway?

In all honesty I think it has no benefit at all, but I am sure some people like the fact they have a few "EXTRA" chips in front of them

[thinsy147]

MY THOUGHTS:

A deepstack (50,000) gives playability to everyone. The majority of local/pub game players play for fun, they don"t try to put opponents on a hand, they don"t bother to work out pot odds, percentages or outs etc. They don"t even consider a "five times the big blind raise" to be a significant raise. The advantage for these players is that they get their "monies worth" from the game. They can lose 10,000 chips on their first hand and still be in the game.

The more "complete" player also has the advantage that he can get involved when he has the "goods" and not have to worry about getting called by the "lucky gambler" who felt he HAD to call because he only needed an 8 for his straight!!

In the long run the "complete" player who has learned "chip management" (pot odds etc etc) will come out on top. Once the blinds start getting higher the "lucky gambler" may have just ran out of luck aswell as chips!

At the end of the day everyone has fun  

[Paulie_D]

A deepstack (50,000) gives playability to everyone.

The majority of local/pub game players play for fun, they don"t try to put opponents on a hand, they don"t bother to work out pot odds, percentages or outs etc. They don"t even consider a "five times the big blind raise" to be a significant raise. The advantage for these players is that they get their "monies worth" from the game. They can lose 10,000 chips on their first hand and still be in the game.

Actually, I disagree with this...it gives "donkability" to the donks and disadvantages the "more complete" player...it also means that the donks don"t learn even though I"m a great proponent of not "tapping the glass".

But I see where you"re coming from.

Make it a 10k/20k stack and let them lose 20% of that!  

At the end of the day everyone has fun  

This...of course...is true...and worth bearing in mind amongst us/you..ahem..."proper" players.

[thinsy147]

A deepstack (50,000) gives playability to everyone.

The majority of local/pub game players play for fun, they don"t try to put opponents on a hand, they don"t bother to work out pot odds, percentages or outs etc. They don"t even consider a "five times the big blind raise" to be a significant raise. The advantage for these players is that they get their "monies worth" from the game. They can lose 10,000 chips on their first hand and still be in the game.

Actually, I disagree with this...it gives "donkability" to the donks and disadvantages the "more complete" player...it also means that the donks don"t learn even though I"m a great proponent of not "tapping the glass".

But I see where you"re coming from.

Make it a 10k/20k stack and let them lose 20% of that!  

At the end of the day everyone has fun  

This...of course...is true...and worth bearing in mind amongst us/you..ahem..."proper" players.

YoU DoN"t AgReE WiTh MuCh Do YoU?    

Unfortunately, if the "donks" donk too early in the day they see no value and don"t come back!

As I"ve made the money in all but 1 of the 4-5 we have played so I"m..........

HaPpY hApPy HaPpY

[Paulie_D]

YoU DoN"t AgReE WiTh MuCh Do YoU?

Well, as you can see, I did agree with at least one of your points...but that was the reason for creating the thread..to gather differing opinions. Please excuse me for expressing mine.

No, I don"t agree with mega-stacks just for the sake of having them...attracting donks is fine if you want to increase &/or are happy with the added variance...but there is the downside of possibly losing the...ahem..."complete" players when they get busted because the V couldn"t put down his draw to a one-outer.



Of course, it"s different strokes for different folks...what appeals to me in poker might not appeal to you...or the bloke next door.

Probably won"t...I prefer poker with more than two cards in my hand, played Pot Limit...but others are very happy with just NL Hold'em and will get on fine without me and have been doing so for a long time.

[thinsy147]

[Paulie_D]

Jesterial (is that a word?)

If it wasn"t...it bl**dy well should have been...glad you got that one sorted! Now...how to I add a word to the Collins Official Dictionary?  

[furnesspoker]

Jesterial (is that a word?)

If it wasn"t...it bl**dy well should have been...glad you got that one sorted! Now...how to I add a word to the Collins Official Dictionary?  

Whilst at it, please add Donkathon ( A deep stack tourney full of donks) , Donkament ( a turbo fulll of donks), Flish ( A player who cannot fold suited cards especially if there is one matching suit on the flop)