Author Topic: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?  (Read 14715 times)

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fraac

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2010, 16:53:53 PM »
KK/AA first hand of a tournament I open-shove, never mind reads.

shozboy1

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2010, 22:13:18 PM »
marty, you know the hand I"m talking about? Did you also see the TV coverage?
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Marty719

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2010, 07:17:10 AM »
Yea I know it - I actually used it as an example of awful bet sizing in a presentation.  gg ram.
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LongshanksED

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2010, 11:56:03 AM »
just to finish up

with the 4 bettors shove i know im already calling against him, had it been a shove and a call before its back to me im in a tough spot, but i call and he turns over Ako and bricks out to double me up, original raiser fold JJ he said and had i shoved he wouldve snap called - ho hum

i know its not an indepth or deep topic but it was more a question on what my first raise shouldve been

shozboy1

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2010, 13:44:02 PM »
I think in this scenario whether you"d shoved or raised to 2000, with the type of player you describe the button to be, plus the fact he"s just 4 bet an UTG raise and reraise, he"s only ever gonna have one of 3-4 hands here. AA/QQ/AK. So by definition he was never going anywhere whatever you did. The long term outcome is probably the same for either play in this situation.

You can"t necessarily rely accurately on what the original raiser said he might do if you"d just shoved. If he is a "pro" he might"ve said that to try and tilt you

Marty, do you have some in depth info on this hand by vaswani? As with tv its always difficult to appreciate the situation, but on the face of it it seemed a decent play. He narrowed his opponents range down to one hand and correctly folded. However, due to the lack of info on TV I dont know how much of his stack he burned in finding out his opponent had aces. He did, however, manage to keep himself in the tourney at that late stage which may mean making a -EV play on a one off occasion ensured he didnt bust out of a tournament where the prizes were very lucrative. Let me say though I"d never fold kings preflop. I can"t remember as I say how it went, but if I"d raised with KK preflop and got 3 bet, depending on the stack size I"d probably just shove and shrug if he had aces (shrug and be sick if it was a situation with that much cash on the line though I have to say)
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Marty719

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2010, 14:09:54 PM »
He chose a wayyyy too large 4bet size if memory served me correct.  All that bet-sizing achieved was pricing him in if villain shoved.  I"ll have a look around and c if I still have the sheet.  4bet folding w/ KK is usually grim, but 4betting big enough to price urself in and then folding is pretty dumb.

As for the hand above, do u not think shoving looks weaker than 2k?  Are u making it 2k w/ AK here?  If we make it 2k, do we expect villain to continue w/ 88-JJ+AQ?  We always want our perceived range to look weaker than it actually is when we have KK, making a small raise makes our range look exactly like kk+.  Not great...
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noble1

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2010, 16:20:47 PM »
having set rules as to how to play situations/hands isn"t good imho..

Marty719

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2010, 16:27:35 PM »

having set rules as to how to play situations/hands isn"t good imho..


But finding the most +EV route is...
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shozboy1

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2010, 16:52:05 PM »
i understand your point of raise size and not giving off a read. I think if this had played out differently, with maybe UTG and UTG+1 not being involved, I would always pay attention to my bet size and how my opponent may interpret that bet size. However, in this situation, I think whichever route is taken will result in the same EV because of the type of player the button is. He has a very narrow range and he"s not letting his hand go. AK was probably bottom of his range and he still shoved over the strong looking 2.5k raise.

If the thread originator posted this hand because he thought by raising to 2k that scared off the "pro" UTG player with JJ (allegedly), I"d again say to him what he says he had can"t be taken as definitely accurate so there"d be no point in debating that
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Marty719

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2010, 17:05:36 PM »
then a better question would be, what raise size would be best to get utg to commit w/ inferior holdings?
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noble1

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2010, 17:16:13 PM »


having set rules as to how to play situations/hands isn"t good imho..


But finding the most +EV route is...


u missed the point... :(

thinsy147

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2010, 12:33:55 PM »



Vaswani laying down KK against AA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgdgQBYmmqo
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JStarkey

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2010, 18:14:33 PM »
Not shoving here would be criminal imo.

George2Loose

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2010, 10:57:14 AM »
Anyone flat?
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Marty719

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Re: KK tournaments first hand. Whats your move?
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2010, 10:59:05 AM »

Anyone flat?


depends on our image, history and how spewy opening raisers are.  Think shoving>flatting against any good thinking player.
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