Opinions Please.

[Swinebag]

I think i prefer the donk lead Rob, if he checks behind there are a few cards that kill your action, and if he is agressive then he surly sees your donk lead as weakness, and he will come over the top by trying to rep a over pair, somtimes i do this and fall into the trap when someone donks into me with a flopped set.

I pretty much agree with this. was just putting the C/R out there.

The only problem with donk leading sets is that you need to donk lead a few more spots (dont you??). What other spots / flops are favourable for this?

thoughts??

[Pears27]

Before you posted the outcome I was going to make the case for the check-raise.

[To be fair, I do mostly lead out there too, probably a bit less than 1/2 pot for all the reasons Steve et al mentioned - but moreso if I"ve already been seen to open post-flop a decent chunk of the time.]

There are plenty of legitimate pf raising hands that miss this flop completely - stating the obvious, holdings like AK, AQ, maybe AT, any pocket underpair to the jack plus any creative raises if your read isn"t quite right. If your oppo is in an ABC mood he"ll get out of the way to any respectable lead, as happened.

IMO people worry too much about flopped bare flush draws against a single opponent. The chances of villain holding two clubs (now that we know that two of them are out there on the flop) are less than 5%. Factor in the chances of then actually hitting the flush on the turn even if he does have clubs in the hole and you"re looking at 1 in 100. If we can safely rule out the up & down draw (and it doesn"t sound like you put him on 67/63/32) then his only draws are to the overset (5%) or to one or two pair, which is clearly a result for us.

He could scupper our check-raise by checking behind, but any overpair to the jack, the jack itself PLUS most of the hands I was saying he"d fold if you lead (why wouldn"t he think his AK/AQ/TT-66 is ahead here?) should probably result in a c-bet on the flop for us to re-pop.

So I accept it"s slightly higher variance, but I do think there is some merit to checking the flop to either (a) hoover up any light c-bet and/or (b) let him catch up a bit to improve our return on later streets.

[Pears27]

think you played it fine Waz.

bet size was spot on on flop.

If MP raiser is loose aggressive. Then check raising the flop may be more profitable as this player is more likely to miss the flop and may try and take it down with a cbet.

who agrees?

Me, but I made it sound more complicated

[noble1]

you played it fine waz given your read , you fast played it to build a pot which is rarely wrong , fast playing rather than slow playing when in position or out also has the benefit of making you difficult to read and causes opponents to make mistakes.. try to get out of thinking about hands as a singular event, you went by your read and created an opportunity for yourself to get the opponent to reraise his over pairs, call top pair or a flush draw etc etc.. if you had a read that villain cbet almost all of his range then checking to check raise is ok to.. if for example you had suspicions that villain was hand reading, for example you had seen him calling flops in position and when opponents had checked the turn showing weakness and he was betting out putting pressure on them on 4th or 5th street then a bet check bet line depending on the texture will work.. meh its all on whatever reads you have at the time as to which line of play is most optimal so rather than worrying about how to play certain hands working on how you read others and filling in the rest by logic,pattern of play or just instinct is more beneficial to you in how to be getting better..
betting out and playing fast builds pots, it pisses you off when opponents fold lol lol but you create the chance to get bets on all 3 streets and way more chips/bigger pots..

when playing in the blinds and calling certain hands and hitting then betting out and playing fast has other benefits, especially on certain textures [ref - robs question].. for example take a look at G2L wcoop hand, sorry george as to using your hand as an example but i think its a good one to use as to the perils of checking..
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=49888.0

[Waz1892]

Cheers people, and noble for the blonde link.  (on that link - I would have called the shove too - with also the thinking that allofit would be isolating the 4k bet from the loose player with more of a range cuz he cud easily think I (Gl2) have missed that 9high flop - is that thinking ok and along the right lines?)

Seriously pleased that I posted it up on here, as some very good advise from better players which is the whoel reason I joined APAT, and will start to post more hands i get into.

Always shyed away from that, because I didn"t want to come across looking silly with silly plays...but how else can you learn.

At least I have learnt that very fact!

[WYoung83]

 Remember my hand i posted from a few months back, when i flopped the nut flush draw with AK on a 679 flop vs
ally mallu, i checked to the agressive player and he then overshoves on me for like 15k into a 4k pot. Both of us were 150 bbs deep.

If i had led out into him, then i take the overshove play away from his repitoir. quite a similar spot that G2L finds himself in, i had a big hand and by slow playing was forced to fold.

[George2Loose]

re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event with a awesome structure. Even tho Villian 1 was a maniac, I felt the re shover had a much tighter range than normal due to the buy in and due to the structure

[Waz1892]

re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event with a awesome structure. Even tho Villian 1 was a maniac, I felt the re shover had a much tighter range than normal due to the buy in and due to the structure

Far from me to critic ur play george at all - blimey,  far far from it.  

I wasnt meant to be questioning your play by saying Id call.  As you say, in the moment, playing at the high level tournie, things are very different.  Easy to just say "i"d call" on a forum instead of playing the actual hand.

no offence intended.

[mousebob]

55 in BB.
Call or fold pre flop.
Check/call flop.
Assess situation on turn & get chips in somehow (his too!!)
If a club turns bet big. Any other big card may give him pair & you get paid.
As played you"re just unlucky he doesn"t have big pair/AJ to pay you off.

[noble1]

re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event with a awesome structure. Even tho Villian 1 was a maniac, I felt the re shover had a much tighter range than normal due to the buy in and due to the structure

many thanks George

[AMRN]

re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event and was playing skeeeeered

FYP

[George2Loose]

re my hand. It was quite a unique situation. Any other comp I snap all day but it was the 5200 WCOOP main event and was playing skeeeeered

FYP

wish I"d been scurred on my exit hand.

[deanp27]

depending on his c-bet frequency and his VPIP/PFR i will probably be check-raising rather than leading this flop. Not scared of a flush draw getting a free card as most plyers will c-bet their flush draws.

[Honeybadg]

Before you posted the outcome I was going to make the case for the check-raise.

[To be fair, I do mostly lead out there too, probably a bit less than 1/2 pot for all the reasons Steve et al mentioned - but moreso if I"ve already been seen to open post-flop a decent chunk of the time.]

There are plenty of legitimate pf raising hands that miss this flop completely - stating the obvious, holdings like AK, AQ, maybe AT, any pocket underpair to the jack plus any creative raises if your read isn"t quite right. If your oppo is in an ABC mood he"ll get out of the way to any respectable lead, as happened.

IMO people worry too much about flopped bare flush draws against a single opponent. The chances of villain holding two clubs (now that we know that two of them are out there on the flop) are less than 5%. Factor in the chances of then actually hitting the flush on the turn even if he does have clubs in the hole and you"re looking at 1 in 100. If we can safely rule out the up & down draw (and it doesn"t sound like you put him on 67/63/32) then his only draws are to the overset (5%) or to one or two pair, which is clearly a result for us.

He could scupper our check-raise by checking behind, but any overpair to the jack, the jack itself PLUS most of the hands I was saying he"d fold if you lead (why wouldn"t he think his AK/AQ/TT-66 is ahead here?) should probably result in a c-bet on the flop for us to re-pop.

So I accept it"s slightly higher variance, but I do think there is some merit to checking the flop to either (a) hoover up any light c-bet and/or (b) let him catch up a bit to improve our return on later streets.

I am check-raising this all day long ... makes me want to play ...