Calling 'clock'

[HaworthBantam]

Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?

I give out a list of rules to all the dealers at the tournaments that I TD - these are not BIG tournaments, I hasten to add. The final rule gives details of what the dealers are responsible for:-

a.   Ensuring the running of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.
b.   Shuffling of the deck and ensuring that blinds are posted.
c.   Dealing the cards to the players.
d.   Dealing the flop, turn and river after burning a card prior to each round.
e.   Prompting players to act when it is their turn.
f.   Announcing all raises, calls or checks.
g.   Ensuring that the correct number of chips go into the pot.
h.   Ensuring that all main pots and side pots are kept separate and contain the correct number of chips.
i.   Awarding the pot(s) to the winning player(s) of each hand.
j.   Announcing when a card has been exposed, and which card it is. If any player exposes a card at the end of a hand to another player then that card must be shown to all players at the table.

These are pretty much common sense things. My suggestion would be that if anything occurs outside this range then it should be referred to the TD.

Just to be sure everyone understands, these are my instructions at my tournaments, not APATs .

Ian

[BioBlinx]

I"ve had the clock called on me in the past. Not in an APAT tournament I dont think, but in other tournaments. It also seems that once they"ve called the clock on you once they do it again and again even when you"ve had no time to think on a decision.

I always sit around waiting for the end of the time period once a clock has been called on me, and if I didnt agree with the clock being called, I"ll make it known that I"m p***ing away the time too.

I personally dont call clocks myself, I let my opponents decide, and I certainly dont think about calling clocks when I"m not in the hand. I dont think its right so long as the player hasnt take like 5 minutes thinking time.

[WarBwastardo]

This happened to me in the Luton event. I was in the hand and had put a guy all-in, he took a few minutes to think about it and another player suggested I ask for a clock, which I didn"t want to do cause I was on a steal and didn"t want to look weak.  I"d be quite happy if other players not involved in the hand could call the clock, everyone has a vested interest in every hand.  The blinds go up and short stacks want the game to progress. 

I do think some players are a little impatient though, I think you have to bear in mind that a lot of the APAT live games are played by players who are predominantly online players who expect all decisions to be made in 20 seconds as that"s all you get online, so when they play live and see players taking a few minutes it seems unreasonable.  

[Jon MW]

I"ve seen the rule that only players involved in the hand can call the clock and I think it"s a good one.

In Brighton there were some players who took a very, very long time to make a couple of decisions and nobody called a clock on them - which I think is a good indication of how it was, mainly, a very good natured tournament with nobody looking to sneak an edge in.

I"ve had the clock called on me twice - one of those was when we were down to 3 tables at the Razz WSOP and I was chip leader (not all that information is strictly necessary for context, but I thought I"d add it anyway). It was probably a good job that the clock was called in that instance though - because I didn"t realise that it was my turn to act

[JayCbee]

I know the rules and I dont like them - heres why.

At the regional on Saturday I was the short stack on my table with 2 tables left.

There was 1 hand where UTG moved all in with a shortish stack (I also folded from early postion).

The small blind then took at least 5 minutes (if not more) to fold. 

Once he had folded the BB then said "How much?" then took at least another 5 minutes to fold.

As I was already out of the hand I knew I couldnt call clock but with the next blind level fast approaching I was concious that I was the one who would be most impacted by the change of ante.

I sat there in disbelief and very nearly broke the rule to call time.  The BB then taking another 5 minutes beggared belief.   How much? - you are having a laugh.  He shoudl have been completely ready for his decision either way (if the SB called or raised or folded).    His actions should have been ready for all outcomes of the SB decision.

So - Im not in the hand but Im the one it affects the most re the changing blinds at a critical time in my tournament.

Thoughts?  

[WiseOwl]

Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?

I give out a list of rules to all the dealers at the tournaments that I TD - these are not BIG tournaments, I hasten to add. The final rule gives details of what the dealers are responsible for:-

a.   Ensuring the running of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.
b.   Shuffling of the deck and ensuring that blinds are posted.
c.   Dealing the cards to the players.
d.   Dealing the flop, turn and river after burning a card prior to each round.
e.   Prompting players to act when it is their turn.
f.   Announcing all raises, calls or checks.
g.   Ensuring that the correct number of chips go into the pot.
h.   Ensuring that all main pots and side pots are kept separate and contain the correct number of chips.
i.   Awarding the pot(s) to the winning player(s) of each hand.
j.   Announcing when a card has been exposed, and which card it is. If any player exposes a card at the end of a hand to another player then that card must be shown to all players at the table.

These are pretty much common sense things. My suggestion would be that if anything occurs outside this range then it should be referred to the TD.

Just to be sure everyone understands, these are my instructions at my tournaments, not APATs .

Ian

Ian,

Excellent, just the sort of list I was alluding to.  In my experience at the 2 regional tournaments at the Vic, somebody who is new to dealing confines themselves to items c and d only.  As you are a Regional Manager, is there any chance that you can get this issue debated within APAT in time for the next Regionals in December?

[duke3016]

I know the rules and I dont like them - heres why.

At the regional on Saturday I was the short stack on my table with 2 tables left.

There was 1 hand where UTG moved all in with a shortish stack (I also folded from early postion).

The small blind then took at least 5 minutes (if not more) to fold. 

Once he had folded the BB then said "How much?" then took at least another 5 minutes to fold.

As I was already out of the hand I knew I couldnt call clock but with the next blind level fast approaching I was concious that I was the one who would be most impacted by the change of ante.

I sat there in disbelief and very nearly broke the rule to call time.  The BB then taking another 5 minutes beggared belief.   How much? - you are having a laugh.  He shoudl have been completely ready for his decision either way (if the SB called or raised or folded).    His actions should have been ready for all outcomes of the SB decision.

So - Im not in the hand but Im the one it affects the most re the changing blinds at a critical time in my tournament.

Thoughts?  

Are they the sort of people, that if you want them to laugh on a Monday, you tell them a joke on the Friday.............

[HaworthBantam]

Also, should APAT produce a crib sheet for the Self-deal tournaments outlining what the dealer is expected to do and what should be left to the TD?

I give out a list of rules to all the dealers at the tournaments that I TD - these are not BIG tournaments, I hasten to add. The final rule gives details of what the dealers are responsible for:-

a.   Ensuring the running of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible.
b.   Shuffling of the deck and ensuring that blinds are posted.
c.   Dealing the cards to the players.
d.   Dealing the flop, turn and river after burning a card prior to each round.
e.   Prompting players to act when it is their turn.
f.   Announcing all raises, calls or checks.
g.   Ensuring that the correct number of chips go into the pot.
h.   Ensuring that all main pots and side pots are kept separate and contain the correct number of chips.
i.   Awarding the pot(s) to the winning player(s) of each hand.
j.   Announcing when a card has been exposed, and which card it is. If any player exposes a card at the end of a hand to another player then that card must be shown to all players at the table.

These are pretty much common sense things. My suggestion would be that if anything occurs outside this range then it should be referred to the TD.

Just to be sure everyone understands, these are my instructions at my tournaments, not APATs .

Ian

Ian,

Excellent, just the sort of list I was alluding to.  In my experience at the 2 regional tournaments at the Vic, somebody who is new to dealing confines themselves to items c and d only.  As you are a Regional Manager, is there any chance that you can get this issue debated within APAT in time for the next Regionals in December?

I"m not so sure that we can ask or tell somebody, who is volunteering to deal, to follow these guidelines. Playing, dealing, and keeping control of a table can seriously affect your own game.

If any player who volunteers wants to use these guidelines then fair enough, but I"d feel a little uncomfortable telling volunteer dealers to use them.

Ian

[Ken Jude]

He said that anyone can call the clock and as he had a FT hockey top on didn"t question his knowledge.

Should have had him ejected. No sports tops allowed at Luton!

[biffa85]

I personally won"t call a clock unless A) I was in the hand, B) The person had been given several minutes to think things through, (in the case mentioned regarding SB taking 5 mins, then I would probably only wait a further minute for the BB) C) The person is talking or otherwise obviously not sat there with a dilema.

I would also think about how the person plays most hands and take that into consideration before calling a clock.  i.e. if the majority of hands are acted upon quite quickly, then they deserve more leaway on the few that need extra time.

I have during both regionals and the national had the odd hand that needed this extra time, and fortunately for me have never had the clock called.

[George2Loose]

Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.

My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.

I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!

[kinboshi]

Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.

My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.

I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!

Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.

[George2Loose]

Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.

My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.

I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!

Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.

Yup but this is where the standardised rules comes into play again. You SHOULD be able to call time if your sat on a table and not in the hand

Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins

Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.

Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the othe rperson in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???

[Jon MW]

Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.

My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.

I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!

Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.

Yup but this is where the standardised rules comes into play again. You SHOULD be able to call time if your sat on a table and not in the hand

Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins

Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.

Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the othe rperson in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???

If you don"t let anybody at the table call the clock then some people could take advantage like this.

If you let anybody at the the table call the clock then some people could take advantage by continually calling it on people - either way could be taken advantage of. However, I think that the imperative should be that if somebody has a difficult decision to make then they should, by and large, have as much time as they need to make it - this is favoured by restricting the number of people who can call they clock.

[George2Loose]

Not read any posts so apologise if repetiton.

My view is you can call clock if you"re sat on the table. Just cos you"re not in the hand u still have avested interest esp. if you"re short stacked.

I don"t mind when a player has a big decision giving them a bit of time but what annoys me is "serial time wasters" who take absoloutely ages to make any decision- instead of getting a decent amount of hands per level ur at a disadantage cos someone takes 5 mins everytime. Annoying!!!

Might be your opinion, but not within APAT rules.

Yup but this is where the standardised rules comes into play again. You SHOULD be able to call time if your sat on a table and not in the hand

Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins

Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.

Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the othe rperson in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???

If you don"t let anybody at the table call the clock then some people could take advantage like this.

If you let anybody at the the table call the clock then some people could take advantage by continually calling it on people - either way could be taken advantage of. However, I think that the imperative should be that if somebody has a difficult decision to make then they should, by and large, have as much time as they need to make it - this is favoured by restricting the number of people who can call they clock.

How would u then deal with hypothetical sitution above? Just accept that your dwindling stack is going to get weaker???

Personally whenever I have played live or at an APAT national people have always respected difiicult decisions and only called clock when sufficient time has been taken.

I called the clock once in Luton on the bubble- the guy had taken around 5 mins to make a decision and I wanted to put pressure on him (I was i the hand) The dealer said that because the decision was for his tournament that he had not yet had enough time.

Again going back to the standerdised rules discussion- shoudl clock be called by the dealer or TD rather than the players?

Online you get a certain amount to act and the a time bank? Is this a model that could be adapted for the live game?