Critics: Anything I did wrong please?

[kinboshi]

Still need convincing that re-raising against a very tight player raising in this situation from EP is the optimum play.

[GarethC]

I don"t think anyone said that. They said it was better than calling.

[Fatcatstu]

This is pub poker, i am really not surprised that he turns up with KJ.

As it is, in that position i re raise here and take it from there.

Just cause i likes raising.

[Marty719]

If he is raising from an EP and is uber-tight, what range do you put him on?  What is the likelihood that he"ll 4-bet (based on this range we ascribe to him)?  What will we do if he 4-bets?  What percentage of the time does he need to fold to our 3-bet in order to make it a profitable play?  If he flat calls, what does that say about his range?  On a dry board (not the actual one in the OP) how often do you lead out?  What do you do when he re-raises?  What about if he flat calls?

Yea I def do not think 3b is optimal.  I just think it is better than flatting.  If he raises from EP, I"d say an uber tight player usually has 99+, AQs+.  A10dd only has 33% against this range, and the fact that we are oop makes this an even easier fold.  If it is from later position, it prob changes to 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs.  Even against this we only have 36% and are oop so a fold is still good, but if we 3b, we can assume he 4b"s QQ+ AKo, flats 1010-JJ+AQs, and folds the rest.  We win a decent % of the time against his flatting range by c/betting (our hand looks super strong 3b"n a rock oop).

Even if we widen his range, it really doesnt change an uber tight players 4b range, and with the betting lead, we do well against all the rest of his range.  By flatting, I do not really see how we possibly do well against any of his range.  The c/bet has pretty much become compulsory, and is pretty hard for us to defend against vs this type of player.  We also do not feel comfortable when we hit the flop.  If we were on the button, flatting becomes more viable, but oop our hand is a nightmare to play.

[TheSnapper]

If he is raising from an EP and is uber-tight, what range do you put him on?  What is the likelihood that he"ll 4-bet (based on this range we ascribe to him)?  What will we do if he 4-bets?  What percentage of the time does he need to fold to our 3-bet in order to make it a profitable play?  If he flat calls, what does that say about his range?  On a dry board (not the actual one in the OP) how often do you lead out?  What do you do when he re-raises?  What about if he flat calls?

Yea I def do not think 3b is optimal.  I just think it is better than flatting.  If he raises from EP, I"d say an uber tight player usually has 99+, AQs+.  A10dd only has 33% against this range, and the fact that we are oop makes this an even easier fold.  If it is from later position, it prob changes to 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs.  Even against this we only have 36% and are oop so a fold is still good, but if we 3b, we can assume he 4b"s QQ+ AKo, flats 1010-JJ+AQs, and folds the rest.  We win a decent % of the time against his flatting range by c/betting (our hand looks super strong 3b"n a rock oop).

Even if we widen his range, it really doesnt change an uber tight players 4b range, and with the betting lead, we do well against all the rest of his range.  By flatting, I do not really see how we possibly do well against any of his range.  The c/bet has pretty much become compulsory, and is pretty hard for us to defend against vs this type of player.  We also do not feel comfortable when we hit the flop.  If we were on the button, flatting becomes more viable, but oop our hand is a nightmare to play.

Nice post, Puts the case for 3 betting very well.

Have we established yet in this thread, what is raisers position?

Assuming its a LP raise and his range is 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs....

What are reasonable ranges for calling and 3 betting?

[Marty719]

I really do not have a flatting range from the SB here.  If we were IP then I peel a lot lighter, but I cnt see any advantages to flatting s/c"s against this kind of player.  I guess we can set-mine 22-77, but again I would rather 3b for the reasons mentioned above.

Our 3b range for value against hs opening range should prob be 1010+ AQo+.  This has around 57% against villains range, so we can actually widen this profitably, but seems good as a default against this player type.

The rest of our 3b range is more speculative, and pretty undefined imo.  Its filled with hands that we are just trying to pick up a small pot with.  

[TheSnapper]

I really do not have a flatting range from the SB here.  If we were IP then I peel a lot lighter, but I cnt see any advantages to flatting s/c"s against this kind of player.  I guess we can set-mine 22-77, but again I would rather 3b for the reasons mentioned above.

Our 3b range for value against hs opening range should prob be 1010+ AQo+.  This has around 57% against villains range, so we can actually widen this profitably, but seems good as a default against this player type.

The rest of our 3b range is more speculative, and pretty undefined imo.  Its filled with hands that we are just trying to pick up a small pot with. 

Really curious about the 3bet bluff option, If your range is undefined.....

How do you decide if or when you"re gonna be 3 bet bluffing and how do you keep tabs on your frequencies.

Game theorists suggest upto 1:1 value to bluff ratio in balanced 3 betting ranges, your example of 1010+ AQo+ for value is top 4.5% so assuming we don"t have a calling range ( thats a debate all of its own but you make some valid points) we should have a total 3bet range of top 9% = 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo

1010+ AQo+                       for value
88,99,ATs,AJs,KQs,AJo         as a bluff

usually you would also have a calling range, splitting those two set of ranges and using hands not quite good enough to call with as your bluff range, so total range would look like......

top 4.5%     3 bet for value     = 1010+ AQo+

4.6%-9%     Call                    = 88,99,ATs,AJs,KQs,AJo
(not suggesting we call with this range here and its likely a smaller "value:call:Bluff" ratio applies but doubt very much if its 0 for calling, these ranges would of course have to adjust based on effective stack size too.)

9.1%-13.5% 3 bet bluff          = 77,A8s,A9s,K9s-KJs,QTs,JTs,ATo,KJo,KQo

[kinboshi]

If he is raising from an EP and is uber-tight, what range do you put him on?  What is the likelihood that he"ll 4-bet (based on this range we ascribe to him)?  What will we do if he 4-bets?  What percentage of the time does he need to fold to our 3-bet in order to make it a profitable play?  If he flat calls, what does that say about his range?  On a dry board (not the actual one in the OP) how often do you lead out?  What do you do when he re-raises?  What about if he flat calls?

Yea I def do not think 3b is optimal.  I just think it is better than flatting.  If he raises from EP, I"d say an uber tight player usually has 99+, AQs+.  A10dd only has 33% against this range, and the fact that we are oop makes this an even easier fold.  If it is from later position, it prob changes to 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs.  Even against this we only have 36% and are oop so a fold is still good, but if we 3b, we can assume he 4b"s QQ+ AKo, flats 1010-JJ+AQs, and folds the rest.  We win a decent % of the time against his flatting range by c/betting (our hand looks super strong 3b"n a rock oop).

Even if we widen his range, it really doesnt change an uber tight players 4b range, and with the betting lead, we do well against all the rest of his range.  By flatting, I do not really see how we possibly do well against any of his range.  The c/bet has pretty much become compulsory, and is pretty hard for us to defend against vs this type of player.  We also do not feel comfortable when we hit the flop.  If we were on the button, flatting becomes more viable, but oop our hand is a nightmare to play.

Nice post, Puts the case for 3 betting very well.

Have we established yet in this thread, what is raisers position?

Assuming its a LP raise and his range is 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs....

What are reasonable ranges for calling and 3 betting?

I only call here if it"s an uber-tight player raising from EP.  Otherwise it"s either a fold or a 3-bet bluff (raise to a fold and planning to let go of the hand post-flop unless it smacks me hard in the face).

I do the same with 56 in my hand.

Out of interest, what does everyone do if you hold TT against the uber-tight player raising from EP in this situation?

[TheSnapper]

Out of interest, what does everyone do if you hold TT against the uber-tight player raising from EP in this situation?

I call and stack him if I set up check fold otherwise.

[Marty719]

"I only call here if it"s an uber-tight player raising from EP."

This quote is very interesting for me.  Given that he is a tight player raising from ep and we are oop for the whole hand, what makes calling>folding?? Edit: reread whole thread...is the reason we might make a flush or straight and stack him?!?!?!?!?!

With 10"s I prob 3b fold against this player vs the ranges listed above. If we view him as super tight and think his 4b range is QQ+ AK. 10"S only have 36% against this range.

Only reason I don"t want to flat and set-mine is I do not want to c/f all non-10 boards.  Then again, I would rather flat 10"s than A10 suited as the reverse implied odds are not as bad, and they are probably easier to play from the flop onwards.  Think its still a 3b for most of the same reasons tho.

[noble1]

If he is raising from an EP and is uber-tight, what range do you put him on?  What is the likelihood that he"ll 4-bet (based on this range we ascribe to him)?  What will we do if he 4-bets?  What percentage of the time does he need to fold to our 3-bet in order to make it a profitable play?  If he flat calls, what does that say about his range?  On a dry board (not the actual one in the OP) how often do you lead out?  What do you do when he re-raises?  What about if he flat calls?

Yea I def do not think 3b is optimal.  I just think it is better than flatting.  If he raises from EP, I"d say an uber tight player usually has 99+, AQs+.  A10dd only has 33% against this range, and the fact that we are oop makes this an even easier fold.  If it is from later position, it prob changes to 77+, A10s+ AJo+, KQs.  Even against this we only have 36% and are oop so a fold is still good, but if we 3b, we can assume he 4b"s QQ+ AKo, flats 1010-JJ+AQs, and folds the rest.  We win a decent % of the time against his flatting range by c/betting (our hand looks super strong 3b"n a rock oop).

Even if we widen his range, it really doesnt change an uber tight players 4b range, and with the betting lead, we do well against all the rest of his range.  By flatting, I do not really see how we possibly do well against any of his range.  The c/bet has pretty much become compulsory, and is pretty hard for us to defend against vs this type of player.  We also do not feel comfortable when we hit the flop.  If we were on the button, flatting becomes more viable, but oop our hand is a nightmare to play.

Still need convincing that re-raising against a very tight player raising in this situation from EP is the optimum play.

going by martys uber range then villain has 45 combos of which 27 4bet [maybe flat a % of the time] 12 flat call and if villain can fold 99 then 6 combos fold , so with that range in a maths sense then 3betting is not +ev..
But considering how deep shanks is then risking 1700 chips to raise to 1900 [only about 3.5 to 4% of his stack] plus a cbet if called/needed is not a huge error imho , not if you take into consideration future play , say we fold to a 4bet and later on we pick up AA and face a similar situation then getting value is impacted by our previous play.. So although the maths say its not +ev it is +ev in the future imo..
as to calling then with 43/44 to 1 implied odds why not make a call with ATC"s? we"ll flop 2pair or trips about 3.3% of the time and if villain cannot fold an overpair [this is pub poker] then calling is not to bad imho..
folding is zero ev so its not a mistake to fold...

all on villains range but i"d suspect it to be wider than 99+ AQs+ due to his his stack size, maybe not miles wider but given how deep we are then a call or a smallish 3bet is more preferred to folding for me, as long as we are disciplined enough to fold a pair of aces or tens if villains gets jiggy...  

[kinboshi]

[Marty719]

3b folding w/ 10"s def sucks, but i just dnt wana gt trapped into gng call/call/call, and 3b call is awful.

Uber tight players are def exploitable, but so are people who play mediocre hands oop.

U know u rnt going to get "the perfect flop" enough to make it profitable? What is ur line u line for A high flops?  Are u just putting all ur$ in evry time u flop a draw?  Considering the c-bet freq of the average villain, we are only gng to see 3cards most of the time.

[noble1]

dont forget the donk bet as an option marty if calling pre, tight opponents luvvvv donk bets , especially small ones
TT if reraised pre allows villain to play his ranges perfectly , even with AK he his better off seeing 5 cards rather than 3.....if 3betting to bluff to fold to a 4bet i"d prefer 2 suited cards like KXs QXs.... 56 boshi i"d prefer calling with it rather than 3betting given stack sizes and implied odds etc blah blah, seeming as we are up against pub opponents i"d not be too bothered polarizing my 3bet range from our suited crap to top end stuff and calling with pairs and connectors..

I really do not have a flatting range from the SB here.  If we were IP then I peel a lot lighter, but I cnt see any advantages to flatting s/c"s against this kind of player.  I guess we can set-mine 22-77, but again I would rather 3b for the reasons mentioned above.

Our 3b range for value against hs opening range should prob be 1010+ AQo+.  This has around 57% against villains range, so we can actually widen this profitably, but seems good as a default against this player type.

The rest of our 3b range is more speculative, and pretty undefined imo.  Its filled with hands that we are just trying to pick up a small pot with. 

Really curious about the 3bet bluff option, If your range is undefined.....

How do you decide if or when you"re gonna be 3 bet bluffing and how do you keep tabs on your frequencies.

Game theorists suggest upto 1:1 value to bluff ratio in balanced 3 betting ranges, your example of 1010+ AQo+ for value is top 4.5% so assuming we don"t have a calling range ( thats a debate all of its own but you make some valid points) we should have a total 3bet range of top 9% = 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo

1010+ AQo+                       for value
88,99,ATs,AJs,KQs,AJo         as a bluff

usually you would also have a calling range, splitting those two set of ranges and using hands not quite good enough to call with as your bluff range, so total range would look like......

top 4.5%     3 bet for value     = 1010+ AQo+

4.6%-9%     Call                    = 88,99,ATs,AJs,KQs,AJo
(not suggesting we call with this range here and its likely a smaller "value:call:Bluff" ratio applies but doubt very much if its 0 for calling, these ranges would of course have to adjust based on effective stack size too.)

9.1%-13.5% 3 bet bluff          = 77,A8s,A9s,K9s-KJs,QTs,JTs,ATo,KJo,KQo

nice to see u thinking snapper about balancing ranges , even in pub comps its good to experiment imho.. just to get u thinking more on it, take a look-see at this article, good to know for playing good tough players but maybe not applicable for the pub like the author says and i"d agree that if when polarizing your ranges then if your opponent is not very good then it doesnt matter 1 jot , as they dont know how to exploit it and more than likely dont even notice you are polarized to either extreme...

http://www.cardrunners.com/article/110/the-problems-with-a-polarized-range/


edit - right i"m off across the pond for 3months or so in a couple of days so i"ll wish every1 within APAT a premature Merry Christmas and a happy new year , and may the poker gods be kind to you all.........

[George2Loose]

This is not a fold pre. You just have to be cautious pre flop.

Call is fine- re raising is bad.

Post flop you played it fine too- this is exactly the kind of flop you"re looking for although if opponent is tight as described I probs just call flop but don"t mind getting it in here.

And noble"s right. Bet small to reshove is a good play here too. Depends how much F/E you can build with your sizing