Author Topic: Call?  (Read 10121 times)

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AMRN

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Re: Call?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2010, 17:17:31 PM »

FWIW the no straddle and 100BB cap rules are rubbish IMO.



We haven"t all just won £40k at WSOPE you know!! some of us have to play within a limited bankroll, the cap to 100BB helps. Personally would prefer to play £1/£2 with a £200 cap, but they rarely do that at DTD.   Last time I bought into a £1/£2 game with £200, a guy sat on my left with around £10k!

Make the low stakes games capless, and you lose a lot of the first timers from the cash tables


WYoung83

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Re: Call?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2010, 20:12:30 PM »
 Have to say that i would rather somthing like 100-200 bbs mandatory buyins at DTD, it would get rid of the shortstackers, and wouldnt matter so much if some moron was betting dark. But i dont go there often for reasons like this.

Agree that if it is capless, then some idiot is gonna show off his roll, but muppets sitting there on friday night with just £50-£100 and 3 betting blind is absolutly ridic.....the game is just not deep enough for this type of stupidity.

Most people at the tables in DTD / or most other card rooms for that matter, have seen poker on TV, with straddles and players like Tony G raising dark etc, but what they dont realise, is that these games are 400+ bbs deep.

Pitchie

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Re: Call?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2010, 23:42:22 PM »


FWIW the no straddle and 100BB cap rules are rubbish IMO.



We haven"t all just won £40k at WSOPE you know!!


I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!

Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.

Paul

TheSnapper

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Re: Call?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2010, 00:19:08 AM »


I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!

Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.

Paul


Completely disagree Paul.

Its really tough to hand read against the wide ranges found in this type of game for sure. But the player"s have tendancies and huge weaknesses you can observe and exploit, AKA, playing good poker, honing ones skills etc.

My experience of this type of game is that there"s huge variance and the beats can be savage. As a result tilt control and bankroll management skills are rigourously tested over and over.

Those are probably two of the more beneficial skillsets a decent player can master. Many top top players have gone broke as a direct result of one or both of these common leaks.


"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

Pitchie

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Re: Call?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2010, 10:49:50 AM »



I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!

Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.

Paul


Completely disagree Paul.


You make some real valid points of which I completely agree with. Tilt control and bankroll management are very very important as you quite rightly state.

However, the OP was questioning whether or not it is right in this situation to call with 33 on the board in question. I would virtually never, in this game, in this situation, fold because the game is so soft. And as I previously got onto, I personally think that playing your hand vs hand ranges is one of the most important skills you"ll need to play good players.  In these games, you won"t develop that skill. This is what I was trying to point out to the OP"er. If you want to learn about tricky spot"s as this situation may or may not be, playing $0.50/$1.00 (dollars not pounds) will learn you more than that game will, and you"ll still learn the important stuff you mentioned.

Frankly, you are better off sitting in the £1.00/£2.00 game with £100 (50BB"s) than you are buying in for the cap at £0.50/£1.00.

Paul.


« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 10:54:13 AM by Pitchie »

WYoung83

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Re: Call?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2010, 12:55:05 PM »
 I think its hard to exploit a game when people are only buying in for 40-50bbs. Makes it hard to play the tricky hands like small pairs and suited connectors  etc vs them, especially if they are raising dark etc. And if you wait for good starting hands and tighten up your ranges, then this makes for higher variance.  So i think its right that what paul has said.

"u will never hone your skills in these games" and if you have tilt issues and very bad bank roll management like me. Im best off leaving them alone.

i dont play at dtd often, but from what i have seen, i think most of the regs there couldnt beat the low stakes on stars and tilt.


TheSnapper

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Re: Call?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2010, 15:39:51 PM »

Thought long and hard about whether or not to reply to this, in the end, there are so many points that are just wrong.


I think its hard to exploit a game when people are only buying in for 40-50bbs. Makes it hard to play the tricky hands like small pairs and suited connectors  etc vs them, especially if they are raising dark etc. And if you wait for good starting hands and tighten up your ranges, then this makes for higher variance.  So i think its right that what paul has said.


Play a solid starting hand range and isolate, preflop raise may need to be inordinately large but figure out what size works best. From there, no need to get jiggy, just bet the max for value when you hit. When you"re good you extract the max and he pays you off, when he"s good he misses lots of value and you make correct folds = you turn a nice profit.

Quote

I think its hard to exploit a game when people are only buying in for 40-50bbs. Makes it hard to play the tricky hands like small pairs and suited connectors  etc vs them, especially if they are raising dark etc. And if you wait for good starting hands and tighten up your ranges, then this makes for higher variance.  So i think its right that what paul has said.


Small pairs are gold in this game, you flop a set 1:8 and its highly likely you"ll stack someone. Folding small pairs is just wrong, as a general rule, 10/1 implied odds is enough in this game to profitably see a flop.

SC"s are more tricky and if you are not comfortable playing them or can"t turn a profit with them, folding is ok and keeps the tricky spots to a minimum. But it has to be said that in this type of game, played well and for the correct price, a semi decent player should easily profit with SC"s. The secret is to play them with a plan and not deviate from that. For example,

there"s a 3x raise in ep,
two call and you hold 7s8s,
there"s 10.5 bb"s in the pot its 3 to call and you will have position in the hand.

This is a nice spot to call, but with a plan to only continue with two pair+, strong draws and combo"s, but only! for the correct price.

The flop is 7h6sJc and the raiser leads for 10 bb"s.
It was not part of our plan to continue in this kind of spot, fold!


Quote


"u will never hone your skills in these games" and if you have tilt issues and very bad bank roll management like me. Im best off leaving them alone.

i dont play at dtd often, but from what i have seen, i think most of the regs there couldnt beat the low stakes on stars and tilt.




You are totally correct, they couldn"t. I would estimate that the standard of player at even 25nl online could be 5-10 times higher than in this live £0.50. / £1 game.

But you seem to be confusing this point as a reason not! to play in the game. That brings me nicely to my final point.



Frankly, you are better off sitting in the £1.00/£2.00 game with £100 (50BB"s) than you are buying in for the cap at £0.50/£1.00.

Paul.



When reasoning as to which game to play in, the  "so as to hone your skills" criteria is not at all important, unless of course you can afford it, but even then?. What I mean is, obviously there is more scope to learn (AKA, "hone your skills") in tougher games and against better players but you are unlikely to profit in that game. The knowledge you gain is not much use if you"re busto.

To summarise......


  • Play in games you can afford to play in

  • Play in games you can beat

  • Learn

  • Manage your bankroll

  • Move up levels



Within that framework, "hone your skills" looks after itself.


"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

AMRN

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Re: Call?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2010, 16:49:51 PM »
Excellent post Brendan

pables

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Re: Call?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2010, 17:09:50 PM »
Brendan!

Extra nachos for you my good man.

Great post

:)
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WYoung83

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Re: Call?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2010, 23:07:45 PM »
Really was a good post, best one on academy section ive seen for a while. Thanks for that.

noble1

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Re: Call?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2010, 12:57:44 PM »




I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!

Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.

Paul


Completely disagree Paul.


You make some real valid points of which I completely agree with. Tilt control and bankroll management are very very important as you quite rightly state.

However, the OP was questioning whether or not it is right in this situation to call with 33 on the board in question. I would virtually never, in this game, in this situation, fold because the game is so soft. And as I previously got onto, I personally think that playing your hand vs hand ranges is one of the most important skills you"ll need to play good players.  In these games, you won"t develop that skill. This is what I was trying to point out to the OP"er. If you want to learn about tricky spot"s as this situation may or may not be, playing $0.50/$1.00 (dollars not pounds) will learn you more than that game will, and you"ll still learn the important stuff you mentioned.

Frankly, you are better off sitting in the £1.00/£2.00 game with £100 (50BB"s) than you are buying in for the cap at £0.50/£1.00.

Paul.





agree with Paul that u learn by playing better players, getting good at poker is about learning and not winning, the better u get as u learn then winning money goes hand in hand with u getting better because u are learning :)
Once u learn the fundamentals playing weak players then imho your game stagnates if u continue playing them, in some cases i"d say some players go backwards :)
Playing against a tough opponent/opponents forces you to step up your game, i suppose the trick is not to step up to far lol. Pick/table select opponents that are just ahead of yourself, just so that"s it enough of a challenge so that it forces to you think and focus more than you usually do. It"s then a case of hopefully you"ll hold your own, its the only way to get an idea of your potential. If it goes tits up then it is a case of trying to work out what your not good at, even if you thought that certain areas of your game was ok, flaws in your game will be more exposed playing tough opponents IMO. On the flipside of playing tough opponents it doesn"t just expose flaws in your game, it can also expose areas that your good at which you weren"t really aware of, again when you review afterwards hopefully you"ll get to understand why.. lol lol ...

Phil Ivey"s opinion on how to get better is at the 2min 50sec mark...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNthDspItsQ&feature=player_embedded
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 13:03:52 PM by noble1 »

TheSnapper

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Re: Call?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 16:30:25 PM »
Since you resurrected this interesting thread Noble



I nearly didn"t reply to this for that very response there! I just wanted to get over how bad I think these games sometimes are. Sometimes they"re ok, sometimes they"re unplayable!

Seriously though, even before the win, I hated the 0.50/1.00 for the cap and the blind bets. I love to play bad players, but I like to play them when I can play poker and determine my hand strength by playing the hand a certain way. Unless your at a good table which already has money at it, I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.

Paul



My response was to the comment "I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games."

IMHO thats totally incorrect. There is plenty to observe and learn in this game, consider it your first year at Poker College, a place to learn some fundamentals cheaply or if your a quick learner, for a profit.



I personally think that playing your hand vs hand ranges is one of the most important skills you"ll need to play good players.  In these games, you won"t develop that skill. This is what I was trying to point out to the OP"er.



Its really tough to hand read against the wide ranges found in this type of game for sure. It is often argued that it is much easier to hand read versus the smaller ranges of nitty players and I would definately agree with that observation.
Conversely though, it should then follow that the wider ranges provide more of a hand reading challenge. So again, to state "In these games, you won"t develop that skill", is IMHO incorrect.


agree with Paul that u learn by playing better players, getting good at poker is about learning and not winning, the better u get as u learn then winning money goes hand in hand with u getting better because u are learning :)
Once u learn the fundamentals playing weak players then imho your game stagnates if u continue playing them, in some cases i"d say some players go backwards :)
Playing against a tough opponent/opponents forces you to step up your game, i suppose the trick is not to step up to far lol. Pick/table select opponents that are just ahead of yourself, just so that"s it enough of a challenge so that it forces to you think and focus more than you usually do. It"s then a case of hopefully you"ll hold your own, its the only way to get an idea of your potential. If it goes tits up then it is a case of trying to work out what your not good at, even if you thought that certain areas of your game was ok, flaws in your game will be more exposed playing tough opponents IMO. On the flipside of playing tough opponents it doesn"t just expose flaws in your game, it can also expose areas that your good at which you weren"t really aware of, again when you review afterwards hopefully you"ll get to understand why.. lol lol ...

Phil Ivey"s opinion on how to get better is at the 2min 50sec mark...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNthDspItsQ&feature=player_embedded



You certainly " learn by playing better players" and obviously you learn stuff you most definately won"t learn "at those games" (ie. first year of Poker College) but that doesn"t equate to "I don"t ever think you"ll hone your skills well at those games.".

Simply put, the complexities of Poker offers multiple skill levels to master, each next level is almost like a whole new game, invisible to you and only revealed when you fully understand your current skill level.

Some uber talented players may succeed immediately in higher standard games, some will learn faster than others but IMHO a solid learning process should exclusively start at the basic level and build on that by way of adding the more advanced skills and understandings.

On top of all of that....

Quote from: noble1

"getting good at poker is about learning and not winning"


Getting good at poker = Winning. But! you can"t learn if you don"t play, you can"t play if you"re Busto, hence......

Quote from: TheSnapper


  • Play in games you can afford to play in

  • Play in games you can beat

  • Learn






Quote from: noble1

"Once u learn the fundamentals playing weak players then imho your game stagnates"

So you should.....
Quote from: TheSnapper


  • Move up levels






Quote from: noble1

"trick is not to step up to far lol."
"just so that"s it enough of a challenge"

AKA......
Quote from: TheSnapper


  • Manage your bankroll

  • Move up levels






Quote from: noble1

"If it goes tits up"

It won"t if you........
Quote from: TheSnapper


  • Manage your bankroll





And finally, one last seldom mentioned point.

Progress and learning in Poker is measured by winnings but unlike in most pursuits this key peformance indicator will very often lie to us. On any given day we can.........


  • Play our absolute best and lose big

  • Play our absolute worst and win big



It takes a unique physcological fortitude to not be deceived by this anomaly.



« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 16:37:16 PM by TheSnapper »
"Being wrong is erroneously associated with failure, when, in fact, to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it elevates someone to a new level of understanding."

noble1

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Re: Call?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 17:32:58 PM »
Lots of waffle for good to learn the basics at SSNL imho ;D BUT to get better u still need to move up and play better players... Is it really hard to play SSNL? not imho, full of passive bad and aggressive bad players, value bet till the passive player reraises and let go of 1pair hands instantly, against aggressive bad then TPTK is mostly ahead, eassssy game... :) like i maintain , that sort of skill is dumbing down to the the most basic level, hand reading is far easier in SSNL moreso against a NIT as there hands are face up by the river, its not rocket science.. :)  plus it helps if u have your lucky pants/socks on plus a BRA on your head imho...

TheSnapper

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Re: Call?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 17:37:28 PM »

Lots of waffle for good to learn the basics at SSNL imho ;D BUT to get better u still need to move up and play better players... Is it really hard to play SSNL? not imho, full of passive bad and aggressive bad players, value bet till the passive player reraises and let go of 1pair hands instantly, against aggressive bad then TPTK is mostly ahead, eassssy game... :) like i maintain , that sort of skill is dumbing down to the the most basic level, hand reading is far easier in SSNL moreso against a NIT as there hands are face up by the river, its not rocket science.. :)  plus it helps if u have your lucky pants/socks on plus a BRA on your head imho...


Your selective reading skills are well honed ;D
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noble1

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Re: Call?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2010, 17:52:27 PM »

Your selective reading skills are well honed ;D


i think andrew seidman maybe onto something yes :)