Cash Game Hand on Betfair - I have QQ.

[Waz1892]

Pre-flop Raise OK?  
Flop Bet OK on that board?
Right to Check on turn?
Do I do these Academy hands correctly?!  

TEXAS_HOLDEM, NO_LIMIT, R5-99922912-261
played at "Geneve" for USD RM from 2010-11-25 16:53 until 2010-11-25 16:54



Seat 1: mrPrat0309 ($26.54 in chips)  
Seat 4: acesup42010 ($20.86 in chips)  
Seat 5: RidingHorse ($42.79 in chips)  
Seat 6: supersys003 ($24.74 in chips)  
Seat 7: Luckyyyy777 ($6.40 in chips)  
Seat 8: God Fish ($13.34 in chips)  
Seat 9: Waz1974 ($35.47 in chips)  
Seat 10: leo7689 ($27.02 in chips)  



ANTES/BLINDS
Waz1974 posts small blind ($0.10), leo7689 posts big blind ($0.20),

PRE-FLOP
mrPrat0309 raises to $0.80, acesup42010 calls $0.80, RidingHorse folds, supersys003 folds, Luckyyyy777 folds, God Fish folds, Waz1974 raises to $2.20, leo7689 folds, mrPrat0309 calls $2.20, acesup42010 calls $2.20.

FLOP [board cards: AS,AC,AD ]
Waz1974 bets $3, mrPrat0309 calls $3, acesup42010 folds.

TURN [board cards: AS,AC,AD,JC ]
Waz1974 checks, mrPrat0309 checks.

[AMRN]

When you consider that you have 3-bet to 11x preflop, and have two callers, the table must be pretty fishy. Therefore, why check the turn? If your hand was good in the flop, nothing changed on the turn..... you were called on the flop, and it kind of stands to reason that you will get called again on the turn. Checking here is just missed value.

c-bet again on the turn - $6 is about right to keep him interested with an underpair, and sets the pot at just the right value for you to be able to ship the rest in on the river and make it a mandatory call for him.

If he has quad aces - suck it up, I reckon you are supposed to stack off in this spot.

[deanp27]

3bet more pre and keep betting

[GarethC]

3bet more pre and keep betting

100% agree. Make it >$3 pre and keep betting for value on this board, they"re going to call it down with a lot of pairs.

[TheSnapper]

I agree with the $3 pf 3 bet especially since we are oop, the $3 bet probably also gets called in two spots and the pot is a healthy $9.20 going to the flop.

Flop ($9.20): bet $6 - $8.50 aiming to make for a turn or river psb (or slightly less) but getting stacks in as early as is possible.

That line doesn"t change ever for me and I"m never ever folding even though I suspect it all ends horribly for you in this hand.

[Waz1892]

I did think afterwards that my Pf bet was a little shy.

I checked the turn in case he had the ace so I didn"t stack off, as anything he bets I will prob have to call anyway.

so continung the hand

RIVER [board cards: AS,AC,AD,JC,8D ]
Waz1974 bets $3, mrPrat0309 raises to $6, Waz1974 calls $6.

Thoughts on my play (be gentle, I"m still learning) and what does he have now?

After the river I will share further thoughts and seek comments as I want to learn from better players.  AMRN has already touched I something that I think is maybe a leak in my game - in that I should really be stacking off in this type of hand.

[Mikeyboy9361]

When you consider that you have 3-bet to 11x preflop, and have two callers, the table must be pretty fishy. Therefore, why check the turn? If your hand was good in the flop, nothing changed on the turn..... you were called on the flop, and it kind of stands to reason that you will get called again on the turn. Checking here is just missed value.

c-bet again on the turn - $6 is about right to keep him interested with an underpair, and sets the pot at just the right value for you to be able to ship the rest in on the river and make it a mandatory call for him.

If he has quad aces - suck it up, I reckon you are supposed to stack off in this spot.

Agree with this.

You"re always gonna call that raise on the river, and if he has an ace or pocket Kings then so be it.

[Foggy]

I did think afterwards that my Pf bet was a little shy.

I checked the turn in case he had the ace so I didn"t stack off, as anything he bets I will prob have to call anyway.

so continung the hand

RIVER [board cards: AS,AC,AD,JC,8D ]
Waz1974 bets $3, mrPrat0309 raises to $6, Waz1974 calls $6.

Thoughts on my play (be gentle, I"m still learning) and what does he have now?

After the river I will share further thoughts and seek comments as I want to learn from better players.  AMRN has already touched I something that I think is maybe a leak in my game - in that I should really be stacking off in this type of hand.

Checking the turn has only given him a chance of a free card. He could hold a king in which case you have caused your own demise.
In all probability you were in front pre flop, so keep betting on all streets. If he has the Ace then it"s a cooler, but in the same situation all my money is going in IMO

[Fatcatstu]

As said, i bet the turn roughly 110% of the time, about 7 dollars, and then ship all in over the top of his cack arsed min raise if i am honest with you, if you lose in this spot, its just UL really, reload and go for it again.

[mulen]

hi

You have to 3bet a bit more here in my opinion.. and please bet the turn for value all day.. its so unlikely that you are beaten and it nearly impossible that your opp will c/r bluff you here so just keep betting.. you get a lot of value from all pairs which is a big part of his range here.. and even if opp has an ace / FH here ( which is very unlikely ) he will probably just call and then check on the river too.. so if you really afraid of the ace you can check back on the river too..

[PantsMan]

I agree with others that your 3 bet size is too small PF. Guess it depends why you"re 3 betting. To get more money in the pot or to get rid of players with drawing hands.

Not sure i agree with Steve (AMRN) about two callers making the table a bit fishy. The first caller is getting nearly 3 to 1 (1.40 into 4.10) and once he calls the second caller is getting nearly 4 to 1 (1.40 into 4.50). The 3 better doesn"t necessarily have to have a big hand and if the pot is 5.50 and i have to bet 1.40 to call i"m not going anwhere with any hand i called the original raise with.

Once the flop comes down i"m going nowhere with the Queens. If he"s got kings he"s re-popping pre so there"s only one card to worry about and if he"s got the ace, he"s got the ace, so be it. I"m betting every street. Definitely not checking the turn and definitely not putting in such a small bet on the river. I"m happy to get all my stack in here. If he"s got lucky, fair play to him.

[Waz1892]

Agree now with pre flop bet, but I think he"d call anyway with AJ.

I guess in summary i played the hand to scared and shouldn"t worry if he has KK or Ax - If he has that"s poker.

I guess i"m losing value by not getting it all in and winning most of the time by getting called with most hands, as the money  "saved" by playing safe / scared / nitty doesn"t offset the money i would normal win when getting called dwon by weaker pairs.

Cheers for feedback

[noble1]

pretty much disagree with most of the thread
Full ring and 3bet squeeze utg1 raiser and utg2 caller, no reads!! full ring is usually full of rocks/nits, Waz"s perceived range should look strong to ALL but complete donks and nutters, agreed with the point that the 3bet p/f sizing maybe a tad small. OOP on AAA flop 2 callers in a 3bet squeezed pot, unless the opponents are complete idiots then OOP we stand to get very little value by betting 3 streets, OOP full stop just doesn"t make much cash in the long run, plus add in that Waz is in the blinds, hands up who has a tracker who has positive figures for the blinds? Stack off everytime OOP on this texture, REALLY?

have a look at this Waz, have a good long think.. if anything this guy will make u smile.. remember OOP and no reads equals lots of head scratching and bitching about how bad u are running etc etc blah blah... Nikachu talks about his theory on a leak of SSNL regs etc make - pre-flop aggression...

[youtube=425,350][/youtube]

[TheSnapper]

Nice vid, really enjoyed it. His point is predicated on our equity versus the opponents likely 3b calling range. My experience at 20nl is that QQ+AK,AKs is way too tight a range to give them. You could certainly widen that range based simply on the premise that, you seldom run into optimal ranges at that level.

AdAh,AdAs,AhAs,KdKh,KdKs,KhKs,QQ-88,AhKh,AsKs,AQs,AcKd,AdKc,AhKc,AhKd,AsKc,AsKd,AsKh,AQo is more likely and we have 65% with QQ versus that range. I"ve only included half of the combo"s for AA,KK & AK since they"ll likely 4 bet those hands at least some of the time.

[noble1]

I"ve had some rare time off to think what to reply in this thread
OOP = playing out of position is not healthy in general in cash games because simply we don"t have a lot of choices, its harder to extract value and of course we lose the ability of controlling the size of the pot. Try running a three-barrel bluff OOP lol whilst villain IP calls/flats us with the nuts, hells bells i"ve lost count of the amount of times i had to learn this the hard way lol, count the times the villain just calls flop and turn on certain textures with the nuts, afterall he has position and he has the choice to whether or not to close the action on the river, it helps also when we bet strong into him also lol. Likewise OOP on textures like this [AAA] what does our range look like to a semi-competent player when we barrel like monkeys? Our range is either nutted/strong or air, in reality we make ourselves easier to read. IMHO questions like how should we size our betting when IP or OOP should be asked, especially on board textures when there are very few combinations of nut hands. Betting has a consequence you know, it gives us info, why do so many ignore this? its like there brains turn off and they become fixated with getting paid off no matter what, for fcks sake, take a breath and think the hand through, use reads and a bit of logic and learn when to fold/give up sometimes even if you have a set+ etc ..