Cash Game Hand on Betfair - I have QQ.

[Marty719]

Fold/giving up is obv a mistake when we crush villains range. Bet bet bet is def the best for value here. The info we have is that a nl20 player flatted our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop. I"d love to know what ur value range is here is qq is not in it. Always remember that ppl are stations and let them act accordingly.

Ps bet bet bet may be worse in a mtt, but in cash value is key.

[noble1]

Fold/giving up is obv a mistake when we crush villains range. Bet bet bet is def the best for value here. The info we have is that a nl20 player flatter our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop. I"d live to know what ur value range is here is qq is not in it. Always remember that ppl are stations and let them act accordingly.

very insightful marty...

[Marty719]

No need to get too fancy in these spots. Poker is a game that is easy to over complicate.

[noble1]

No need to get too fancy in these spots. Poker is a game that is easy to over complicate.

I always thought thats it's more important that you understand why you're doing something than just to know what to do in poker

The info we have is that a nl20 player flatted our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop

Value betting is not just about betting to get called by a worse hand, its about betting to get called or raised by a worse hand, so when you say bet bet bet, then how much?

The info we have is that a nl20 player flatted our 3b pre and flatted on a aaa flop

you have more info than that!! he is utg in a full ring game, so that helps us come up with some sort of range, utg calls a 3bet and then flats the cbet with an opponent behind him utg1, hmmm does that help in any way in narrowing down possible hands that villain would do this with? Other info is avaiable, the villains stack size, ok its not locked down logic but he has a stack of 130bb"s+ which met mean that he might have some sort of idea as to what he is doing [until proven otherwise ] look at Luckyyyy777 and God Fish, there stack sizes suggest the opposite..
Waz gets questioned in the thread as to why did he check the turn, WHY? i"d say against some opponents on certain textures[when we have reads helps ] that checking the turn can be good, if our opponent has a nutted hand, then some will still mostly bet out on the turn when checked to, afterall they want to get the max out of there strong hand. So rather than reply in a thread to say checking makes no sense, its missed value etc etc blah blah, then think to yourself when is it good, can it be good in other situations say against someone who has this reflex to betting whenever someone checks to him is the opponent over doing the floating.. I find it frustrating tbh when i see in threads the opportunity to discuss different approaches destroyed by matter of fact std forum replies.

I"d live[like] to know what ur[your] value range is here is[if] qq is not in it

tbh marty i"d have some sort of read and would adjust accordingly  , without reads and being oop tbh i dont embrace variance just for the sake of it and stack off 130bb"s no reads and put it down to coolers when i lose. I just see it as the kind of board texture where getting value oop is difficult, if i were to take the 3barrel route then i"d bet smaller milking type bets or check the flop attempting to gain position to see how utg and utg1 react.. You say poker is easy to over complicate, to that i"d say there is never a universal answer in poker situations as it is people and player types that complicate the game of poker not the game itself..

but in cash value is key

betting for value to get called or raised is important yes but its only part of the concept is it not? afterall position is important, be it being in position so that when involved in pots it enables us to make better decisions, having good table position on different player types is important because lets face it whoever coined the phrase that money flows counter clockwise is pretty much right imho. Being or having position in hands allows for creative play does it not? of course reads help also, hows that for a key to cash or any poker game.. Why stack off oop in these situations at all? the last time i checked, limping was still popular in micro stakes, just winning a fair share of limped pots helps boost any players bb/100, the amount that just check fold when they miss is unbelievable [said in a victor meldrew style] sorry just pointing out that there are other ways/alternatives to beat the micros

thats my moan over

[Marty719]

Jesus thats a big ole wall of text for this time in the morning.  Noble - u r always very good at writing out your thought process, but this is quite frankley bonkers.  Once pre is not 4b, qq = kk.  Is your 3barrell value range in this spot really just Ax?  If so, you are losing value in a whole lot of spots!!!!

No need to get too fancy in these spots. Poker is a game that is easy to over complicate.

I always thought thats it?s more important that you understand why you?re doing something than just to know what to do in poker

I thought it was pretty obv why we are doing it.  To maximise profit.  Its NL20...In villains pov, once we barrell turn, our range is polarised to QQ+, Ax and air.  We can"t just say, "Hmmm, a 20nl player raise calls from utg, a good portion of his range has us beat.  In reality at this level...people do not fold any of their range to 3bs, esp when they are this small!!!  As for him flatting our flop range with a player behind...again, its ridic to think this means he has Ax a good % (we have discussed why he cannot have KK), when he is usually floating 77+. AAA is a board texture that as the pf 3b"r, we are going to be barrelling close to 100% of the time.  The usual stations at this level will be aware of this. 

You say without reads, you don;t just put it down to variance and coolers...in a vacuum...folding this is a million times worse.  If we have a read that villain is a nit, who plays massively fit or fold poker and is incapable of floating semi-light then we can MAYBE check turn for pot-control.  Readless, we have to assume he is similar to 99% of the player base at this level, and "adjust accordingly."  At higher stakes, we can play this differently and check turn for deception, esp when we know villains caqn be capable of floating extra light, BUT at NL20...we can value own people fairly consistently.  Play a few k hands of it today....triple barrell in some polarised spots, and watch how light we get called!!  If you dnt go for max value w/ QQ here then your win-rate will suffer hugely and, yet again I feel the need to point out that in cash games, we do not care about survival and win-rate is key!!  If we get stacks in and double up 75% of the time, and lose the other 25%, then yes, we can say the 25% is a cooler as we know if we play the hand the same way consistently, it will be long term profitable vs this player base.

As for your last point, of course position is important, and of course we should tread more cautiously oop, but that does not mean we should just give up on trying to get value.  We will have to play hands oop, but when we beat our villains range, and feel he will call with worse, then there is no need to get passive.  As long as we know villains range is wide enough to profitably barrell, then we should bet bet bet....and yes...sometimes he will have the top of his range, and that sucks....but it doesnt mean barrelling is the most long-term profitable play.

[noble1]

u might want to edit the above marty its been left in quotes,..
read what i said chap please, i said if i 3barrel without reads oop then i"ll do milking bets at this sort of buy in, the texture of the board makes a difference u know as well as reads.. You point out that villain cannot flat KK here? how on earth can we determine this there are no reads given, its that assumption thing again, i hate it tbh, you cannot base it on anything.. Players have different personalities and to tag a random with no reads as a station or have a thought process from the off that he is going to call 3barrels with say 55 66 77 88 99 TT or KQs is just to simplistic, its the kind of thinking that advocates spew like this and players keep on telling each other in the forums that it is a cooler and that long term it"ll pay off and so the cycle goes on and on and on, players reaffirm to each other all this dribble about how so+so percentage of so+so stake will pay it off, well guess what , i"m yet to see any proof in the pudding on these magical figures .. Well i for one are yet to see someone post there stats over a large enough sample to justify barreling a texture like this OOP, have you? if so please post the link.. With all of the training sites and info out there believe it or not the std of the donkey is getting better, i"m not saying that you can"t still find them but to do so requires a bit more table selection than it did once upon a time. Until as a player who wants to learn and get better, you cannot do this putting bra"s on your head and conjuring up mythical %"s that proof its long term +ev, you have to use reads and base your decision making based on what you have seen previously and adjust from there.. Once you get good at this, in the micros especially then skill advantage plus position is a huge benefit to your winrate, not mindless button mashing pot bets justified by mythical figures..

We will have to play hands oop, but when we beat our villains range, and feel he will call with worse, then there is no need to get passive

agreed on that it seems lol , afterall u advocate having some idea of villains ranges which requires reads

we"ll have to agree to disagree chap me thinks your in the blast it, they are all donks camp, thats how u believe to improve your win rate at micros[please correct if i assume wrongly ]
I"m in the use reads and our skill advantage to better effect to achieve a high win-rate at micros camp...

[Marty719]

u keep getting min value noble

U know its possible to bet bet bet without being spewy? U knoew when the average 20nl villain flats a 3b we can mostly discount KK from their range (bar a tiny % of the time)? Im fine with milking bet-sizes, but theres nothing in ne1s post to say thats not what we want.  If QQ is not in your triple barrel range here, then you WILL be losing value here.  I hate to be as blunt, and I know poker is a game of different scenarios and there is not often a definitive "correct" answer, but at this level, triple b"n QQ on an AAA flop will yield a large long-term profit.

Fold/giving up close to the top of our range is an important skill in NLH, but not one we should be looking for excuses to do.  If we can bet and get called by worse more than called by better, then we should.  I do not see how u cannot realise this?

If your 3 street value range in this spot in a vacuum is Ax only, then, in the nicest possible way...HU4rolls?

[noble1]

lmao marty, your argument is full of spew guesstimates, to advocate when to 3barrel any hand be it with air, tpmk or a set etc and hoping to get paid off then to truly get good at poker and maximise your winrate then you need reads, why? because skill advantage is largely about being able to hand read, when we you can accurately put an opponent on a range of hands then by betting the flop and turn it helps to narrow this even further, so by the river firing the 3rd barrel on the river then it all depends, when i decide to fire a 3rd barrel then my decision making is based on the board texture, my image, player style/tendencies are factors which are dependent to when i choose to do so, there is no set range to know when to 3barrel for myself, it depends on the factors i"ve mentioned[again+again ].. I"m sure u realise this marty?
i hate to be blunt but your arguments for barreling readless do not imho lead to high winrates at any buy in

usual links that i leave behind
http://www.pkr.com/en/raise-your-game/ring-game-strategy/cashgame5-1of1/
http://balugabay.com/?p=19

[Marty719]

moral of story...in a vacuum ignore value??  If you find a WINNING cash game player who says barrelling isnt good against unknowns, then i owe u a drink.  dnt fancy ur chances.  we have to play readless quite a bit in poker.  we do not ignore value.

I shall agree to disagree, and so will evry other decent player on here...

[Marty719]

ps - readless what is ur triple barrel value range here?  how do u advocate playing the hand more profitably in this situation longterm??

[noble1]

ps - readless what is ur triple barrel value range here?  how do u advocate playing the hand more profitably in this situation longterm??

i think i"ve answered that , spec-savers comes to mind

[noble1]

just to add marty  Don't bet according to your hand strength, instead bet according to what your opponent is going to call or cause him to raise with worse. Thats how i see the concept of value betting   be it small bets or large overbets the whole concept/theory behind it all depends on having a read of sorts A real value bet will extract the most money possible will it not, i don"t argue that point being a headless chicken hoping you are getting value seems daft to me
your counter views still do not sway me sir

[Marty719]

ps - readless what is ur triple barrel value range here?  how do u advocate playing the hand more profitably in this situation longterm??

i think i"ve answered that , spec-savers comes to mind

I havent seen the answers and Ive read a few times.  U say if triple barrelling u do it to milk, so is this how u would play it more profitably???  If so, we are arguing the same point.  If not, please explain (without a wall of text).

I also cannot see what ur triple barrell range is without reads in this spot?  U advocate fold/giving up earlier?  Does that mean ur value range is just Ax?

[Marty719]

just to add marty  Don't bet according to your hand strength, instead bet according to what your opponent is going to call or cause him to raise with worse. Thats how i see the concept of value betting   be it small bets or large overbets the whole concept/theory behind it all depends on having a read of sorts A real value bet will extract the most money possible will it not, i don"t argue that point being a headless chicken hoping you are getting value seems daft to me
your counter views still do not sway me sir

I think myself and all other posters have said we are not betting our hand strength alone, we are betting our hand strength vs villains calling range.  We feel that value is made long-term against their calling rangem and that is what the actual concept of value-betting is...

There is no doubt that bet-sizing is important, but no-one has really discussed each street bet-sizing.  Obv some are more optimal than others.  What I am saying is, with the correct bet sizing, triple barreling here is BY FAR the most profitable route.  We are not betting like a headless chicken, we are betting against the perceived range of a base NL20 player.  This is the info we have to go by.  Not trying to get value without a definitive read is lol-worthy,  We are also not "hoping" to get value, we play the hand in this way as we are confidfent we will get long-term value.

Noble....you really should play some NL20 today...then come back and re-address this.

I know u love ur links, so merry crimbo

http://www.onlinepoker.org/beat-micro-cash/

These are my fave bits if u are too busy:

Focus on playing solid hands that are unlikely to be dominated, hit the flop and then proceed to bet, bet and bet some more in order to get value for your made hands. In other words, bet when you have it and fold when you don"t.

3. Do Not Slow Play - Always Value Bet. Since most of the players at these levels like to call, there is really no reason not to bet when you have a made hand. And you don"t have to be stingy with your value bets either. You should be able to bet anywhere from 1/2 to full pot and still manage to get tons of value for your hands

It"s probably hard to believe, but this is all it takes to beat the micro stakes - just old-fashioned ABC poker. You want to focus on playing solid starting hands, fold when you miss the flop and bet relentlessly when you connect

[noble1]

not a big fan of how to beat so+so guides lol , they honk and players don"t learn how to spot situations or how to exploit regs etc etc.. Annette_15 demonstrated this when playing blind in a $4.40 180sng, no abc tripe there marty
she used logic and reads as well as her know how with different textured flops/scare cards etc to win pots, lets face it, it doesn"t take many hands/orbits to build up a profile on weak opponents
We keep going round and round on villains range lol lol why because there are no reads, the flop is AAA, its a 3bet pot so even if villain is super wide then because of the flop texture and action pre-flop, then even the most spazzy villains will fold QJs or 22 etc either on the flop or to the 2nd barrel on the turn to strong bet sizing, so like i said milking bets seem a good option to keep the worst of villains range in for at least 2 streets, 1/2 pot 1/2 pot then 1/4 or 1/3 on the river to get crying calls from 99 TT+ or maybe worse who knows etc etc, this say seems better than [without reads] the idea to get the whole 130bb"s in with our fingers crossed..
If the villain re-raises big or shoves on the flop,turn or river then it is an easy fold imho..

I"m still not convinced by your take on the concept of value as you explain it but i will add this nugget, if we had reads that villain was semi competent be it 25nl or 100nl and appeared to be a thinking reg then if our perceived range is strong then it stands to reason to value bet less and bluff more, the opposite if our perceived range is weak [but is strong] then value bet more and bluff less, this applies to frequency as well as bet sizing and 3barrel bluffs etc etc..
You kept on harping about ranges to 3barrel, like i said ""i don"t have any"" , it depends on the factors i mentioned above, but i will to the add above, when i 3barrel be it to bluff or with a genuine hand then it i"ll do it with air,nutted hands and top pair/bottom 2pair when oop or ip etc , i do this because with players becoming more and more knowledgeable about 3barrels then to coin that internet kiddie phrase ""i want a depolarized range not a polarized one on the river"".. Other spots that i"d consider to 3barrel are draw heavy flop textures where villains range has lots of draw hands[requires reads to narrow this down ] and the turn and river are blanks, then i"d bluff small to fold out his draw range, i sometimes like to triple barrel in spots when i consider my opponents hands/range are prone to being overtaken by scare cards or the occasional flushing card etc, again image and reads are important, oh and not over doing it to..
in a nutshell i"ll always advocate learning how to read players/actions over ABC poker, its the only way to get better