Calling 'clock'

[Paulie_D]

44.   Calling for the clock procedures: Once a reasonable amount of time has passed and a clock is called for, a player will be given one minute to make a decision.

If action has not been taken by the time the minute is over, there will be a ten second countdown. If a player has not acted on his hand by the time the countdown is over, the hand will be dead.

The following individuals, without exception, are entitled to call a clock on a player;-
a.   Tournament Director.
b.   Table Dealer.
c.   Another player participating in that specific hand.

For the avoidance of doubt, the clock cannot be called on a player by another player who is not participating in the hand in question.

So, here"s the thing, if I"m not in the hand, I can"t call the clock myself...fair enough.

But to protect my interest, given the short stack scenario, can I ask the TD to review the position and call it? Sort of an "indirect" clock as it were.

Surely, other players should not be disadvantaged because a player is "delaying" the action even if that person has a difficult decision. Do not all players (and the TD) have the obligation to protect the other players (which is also in the APAT Rules).

But then it"s all down to a subjective interpretation of "reasonable"..apples/oranges!

I would not want to see "live" play become more like "online" with decisions being made within set limits. This, IMO, is there to speed up the action for the site rather than for the players.

[HaworthBantam]

Online you get a certain amount to act and the a time bank? Is this a model that could be adapted for the live game?

That would be a little difficult to administer, wouldn"t you think ?

Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins

Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.

Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the other person in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???

If the blinds were not due to go up for another 30 minutes, would you still have the same worry ? Players should have the right to the time required to make a difficult decision, imho, irrespective of the amount of time remaining to the next blind level.

[Jon MW]

...

Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins

Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.

Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the other person in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???

If the blinds were not due to go up for another 30 minutes, would you still have the same worry ? Players should have the right to the time required to make a difficult decision, imho, irrespective of the amount of time remaining to the next blind level.

I think you"ve got it right here Haworth, the players should have as long as they need to make a difficult decision. A side effect is that it might damage other players prospects, but as long as they were genuinely using the time to decide rather than angle shooting then I think this is just unfortunate - the players in the hand shouldn"t lose out.

If a player was taking a very long time over every single hand then the dealer or TD should notice and start calling the clock on them to minimize the risk of angle shooting. Alternatively you could do what Katja Thater did at the WSOP Razz tournament and just stand up and have a very loud rant at them. It might make them feel a bit more self conscious when they take a long time over a hand in the next few rounds, but even if it doesn"t it"ll make you feel better to let it all out.

[George2Loose]

...

Hypothetical example. Blinds 200/400- about to go up in 12 mins

Ur stack is 3200- u still just about have fold equity.

Two players in a pot one is taking AGES but the other person in the hand is showing no indication of calling time. Suddenly your number of big blinds is potentially going from 8 to just over 4 cos you have no power to call time. Is this right???

If the blinds were not due to go up for another 30 minutes, would you still have the same worry ? Players should have the right to the time required to make a difficult decision, imho, irrespective of the amount of time remaining to the next blind level.

I think you"ve got it right here Haworth, the players should have as long as they need to make a difficult decision. A side effect is that it might damage other players prospects, but as long as they were genuinely using the time to decide rather than angle shooting then I think this is just unfortunate - the players in the hand shouldn"t lose out.

If a player was taking a very long time over every single hand then the dealer or TD should notice and start calling the clock on them to minimize the risk of angle shooting. Alternatively you could do what Katja Thater did at the WSOP Razz tournament and just stand up and have a very loud rant at them. It might make them feel a bit more self conscious when they take a long time over a hand in the next few rounds, but even if it doesn"t it"ll make you feel better to let it all out.

Name dropper

[Jon MW]

It was an entirely appropriate example to use.

If I wanted to name drop I could have added that it was Men the Master who she was having a rant at - but I didn"t.

[HaworthBantam]

 

[kinboshi]

If the player involved doesn"t call the clock, the dealer can.  That"s what they"re there for. 

Unless it"s dealer dealt, and then it would make sense for a player to call  the TD for him to watch and then call the clock.

[The Codd]

I don"t think I"d ever call for a clock if it was a situation where someone was playing for tournament life, they are under enough pressure without someone asking them to hurry up.  If it was taking absolutely ages, then I guess it"s fair enough, but I think a few minutes to think about major decisions is perfectly acceptable.

If it was for only a small pot or they are doing it every time, then that would be a different matter.

But then I"m a nice guy

[kinboshi]

Well played in the GUKPT Graham.

[The Codd]

Thanks

[jjandellis]

I personally will leave a player 5 minutes before calling clock, as this is what I would expect myself. Regardless of decision type/stage of game. Everyone has their own factors to weigh up.

If someone abused the time/constantly dallied then it may be another matter altogether.

Interestingly I have had really annoying clocks put on me in Germany.

The first was at the EPT, when the DEALER put the clock on me after less than a minute. I scoffed; he told me u have a minute to play as a local rule. I didn"t get a TD and made the decision but was fuming. It was only when a large number of BIG name players were subjected to this that it became apparent. The TD then quashed the "local ruling".

Recently I played a cash game. I had been thinking for 20 seconds and the guy called clock!!!!! I laughed at him and told him in English you cannot do that in a cash game. He told me otherwise. I laughed and told him what I thought of him. He ridiculed me in German, so, after the dealer backed him up I decided to have my fun. EVERY single time he dawdled more than 3 seconds I put clock on him for the rest of the evening :-)

Needless to say I don"t think he likes me...

[KingPoker]

Personally im a patient guy and it doesnt bother me anyway but when i see its bothering other players I slow down then  

I believe if its a 2 way pot then noone else should be allowed to have an influence on the way a hand plays out and that is exactly what calling the clock does. I certainly dont respect any players who regularly call for it.

Even if they are "Hollywooding" then why make it obvious to the rest? look for physical differences when he is disinterested in a hand and is just showboating and use it against him later on when he shows the same signs.

 

[hi_am_chris]

Recently I played a cash game. I had been thinking for 20 seconds and the guy called clock!!!!! I laughed at him and told him in English you cannot do that in a cash game. He told me otherwise. I laughed and told him what I thought of him. He ridiculed me in German, so, after the dealer backed him up I decided to have my fun. EVERY single time he dawdled more than 3 seconds I put clock on him for the rest of the evening :-)

Needless to say I don"t think he likes me...
[/quote]


Quality !!! lol

[linziwan]

APAT rules clearly state that only the players involved in the hand are allowed to call for the clock. 

With the influx of Internet Players into the live game I think it has become more of a problem with the clock being called for more.  They are so used to only having such a short amount of time to react that they think live poker should be the same.  Even on line you get them typing ZZZZZZZZ when somebody takes their alloted time...

If you watch any of the poker on tv the pros" will take their time to make a decision and at times in a tournament you need the time to work out the odds etc as Kinboshi said.

Its easy for somebody to say "its an easy decision for you fold..." but they don"t know what you are holding or the history between you and the other player. 

When I have a decision to make I always tell the dealer that I need "Time".

Its not only in this country but it also happened to me in Vegas.  In a $500 buyin festival deepstack tournament at The Venetian.  I had been thinking for about 30 secs when I asked the dealer for "Time" within 2 secs a player not involved in the hand called for the clock.  I immediately got ansty with the player and told him he was well out of order that that I had asked for "time".  The tournament director was called and was not amused when he was informed that the clock had been called so quickly after I had asked for time.  He allowed me one minute before he started the clock.  I folded my hand more because I was so annoyed and couldn"t think properly than what I thought the other player had.  The other player showed me his hand and said it was a good fold but also said outloud that the other player was "out of order" for calling the clock so quickly.  Thankfully he didn"t last much longer.

So in summary I think it is always wise to tell the dealer you need "time".