FT 66k KO

[Fatcatstu]

Ok, first one i have posted on here!! Be gentle :p


Should i just be flatting the river?

Full Tilt Poker Game #27754663641: $66,000 KO Guarantee (215451513), Table 605 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:22:47 ET - 2011/01/30
Seat 1: Otrantina71 (18,581)
Seat 2: FatCatStu (23,707)
Seat 3: truesyalose (6,245)
Seat 4: Ilovekongs (5,705)
Seat 5: UNDeSAZAR (11,521)
Seat 6: biggjohnny (18,160)
Seat 7: Flush-Draw-1984 (5,703)
Seat 8: DJ Fitt (9,385)
Seat 9: aabomb09 (13,378)
Otrantina71 antes 50
FatCatStu antes 50
truesyalose antes 50
Ilovekongs antes 50
UNDeSAZAR antes 50
biggjohnny antes 50
Flush-Draw-1984 antes 50
DJ Fitt antes 50
aabomb09 antes 50
Otrantina71 posts the small blind of 200
FatCatStu posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FatCatStu [ ]
truesyalose folds
Ilovekongs folds
UNDeSAZAR folds
biggjohnny folds
Flush-Draw-1984 folds
DJ Fitt has 15 seconds left to act
DJ Fitt folds
aabomb09 has 15 seconds left to act
aabomb09 folds
Otrantina71 calls 200
FatCatStu checks
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Otrantina71 checks
FatCatStu bets 700
Otrantina71 calls 700
*** TURN *** [ ] []
Otrantina71 checks
FatCatStu bets 1,000
Otrantina71 calls 1,000
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
Otrantina71 has 15 seconds left to act
Otrantina71 bets 1,200
FatCatStu raises to 6,000
Otrantina71 calls 4,800
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FatCatStu shows [ ] a flush, Ace high
Otrantina71 shows [Td ] a flush, Ace high
Otrantina71 wins the pot (16,650) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16,650 | Rake 0

[deanp27]

probably yes but only cos its a paired board

just a tip, exclude results if you want useful answers tho

[LongshanksED]

flop i so exactly the same
turn i check behind - yes im letting a bigger draw in but id hate to be check raised here
river probably flat call and pay him off

[AMRN]

Never raising this river - what do you do if he shoves? If you would fold to a shove, then you"ve effectively turned your hand into a bluff, yet you have so much showdown value.

[Fatcatstu]

Never raising this river - what do you do if he shoves? If you would fold to a shove, then you"ve effectively turned your hand into a bluff, yet you have so much showdown value.

This is what i thought afterwards to be honest mate.

Checking turn i jsut didnt like for letting the bigger draw get there, little did i know lol...

[noble1]

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed)

SB (t18581)
Hero (BB) (t23707)
UTG (t6245)
UTG+1 (t5705)
MP1 (t11521)
MP2 (t18160)
MP3 (t5703)
CO (t9385)
Button (t13378)

Hero"s M: 22.58

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
7 folds, SB calls t200, Hero checks

Flop: (t1250)  ::, ,  kd (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t700, SB calls t700

Turn: (t2650)    (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t1000, SB calls t1000

River: (t4650)   (2 players)
SB bets t1200, Hero raises to t6000, SB calls t4800

Total pot: t16650

Results:
SB had  td, (flush, Ace high).
Hero had , (flush, Ace high).

[noble1]

i dont mind the river re-raise if you had some specific reads to go by, i wouldn"t be averse to raising atc from the bb if the sb limps in pre either...

This is what i thought afterwards to be honest mate

Checking turn i jsut didnt like for letting the bigger draw get there

tbh i"m more intrigued as to why you re-raised river given villains line of play and the board texture, had you any history with villain, seen any previous hands played by him, what sort of ranges was you putting him on, was you even putting him on a range?
in a nutshell i"m asking what was your thought process pre-flop and post-flop street by street...

[Fatcatstu]

Ok.

Pre Flop - Had been fairly active against villain for last few orbits, 4 betting and taking him off hands, which he had made a point of saying he was fed up of, i didnt really like raising with this hand and leaving myself open to folding if/when he re raised, so i thought the check was ok.

flop - hit my draw, but nothign else to get excited about, have seen villain fold if not hit anything in past, so thought 700 should do the trick (is this bet sizing ok?)

turn - Hit what i thought was gin card, but didnt want to check back the turn to let a bigger diamond get there, 1000 was more of a valuey type bet, hoping that the diamonds miss the river and can then make another decent sized value bet.

river - he bets into me, which i would expect him to do with a few busted draws, or a pair/2pair/similar combos. Now i look back at it, i should have flatted, and even if i am raising i am not too sure that i haven"t made it too much.

have to dash out, so will post more info on my thoughts (dark dark place you are venturing here!) when i get back!

[PantsMan]

Not sure what you"re trying to achieve by raising the river? The only point in re-raising is getting him to call with a worse hand, but what could he have that he"d call with that you beat?

You say "he bets into me, which i would expect him to do with a few busted draws, or a pair/2pair/similar combos".

If he has any of those hands then re-raising will simply cause him to fold so there"s no point as you"re not going to win any more. Unless he has 2-3 of diamonds chances are he"s not folding a smaller flush. He"s calling with a bigger flush and if he"s hit a full house then he"s shoving. Therefore flat call and hope for the best!

[deanp27]

Checking the turn 0% of the time. Someone tell me why this is good

[noble1]

flop - hit my draw, but nothign else to get excited about, have seen villain fold if not hit anything in past, so thought 700 should do the trick (is this bet sizing ok?)

against this type where we get passive money[chips] pots then with it being a limped pot i"d bet more tbh 900 to near pot given stack sizes, the positives imo are that when we are actually betting for value then when on the occasions we do get called, then we are playing for a bigger pot when we have it

turn - Hit what i thought was gin card, but didnt want to check back the turn to let a bigger diamond get there, 1000 was more of a valuey type bet, hoping that the diamonds miss the river and can then make another decent sized value bet.

in the main against fit and fold types as played upto now i"d bet more [3/4 pot to pot"ish], if he check called a king then mostly these types imo will call again here no matter what card springs up on the turn, its hard to put him on 2pair+ in this spot so logic upto now imho says mostly his range is draws Kx with a diamond, the c/c flop means flushes so villain just hit his GIN card or Kx...

river - he bets into me, which i would expect him to do with a few busted draws, or a pair/2pair/similar combos. Now i look back at it, i should have flatted, and even if i am raising i am not too sure that i haven"t made it too much

you pegged him as a fit or fold type so i wouldn"t expect villain to bet a busted draw, afterall if he check called a draw on the flop then he hit it on the turn, there aren"t any other draws he can have really on that flop texture.. so villain is betting  a king or a flush [maybe rarely trip 7"s]... sometimes these types can play 2pair on the flop in this way so a boat cannot be discounted entirely hence the just call river consensus, its the safe play, nothing wrong there.. i"m not against a river re-raise either, but like you question, the sizing is a tad large imho, the concept of thin value relies on our opponent calling a bet with the weaker hands in his range.  However, sometimes it will be clear that our opponent holds ONLY weak hands or it met be like how villains range is weighted in your situation.. So ANY hand we bet for value will rely on the same principles of thin value, if our opponent is simply unlikely to pay us off with worse then we have to bet smaller and try to squeeze out as much value as we can that way, so a min raise type bet would be a better choice imo.. 

[noble1]

just to add to above - [going with your read]
if u believe villain will bet his king on the river then there is only 3 kings left, so lets say villain limped K8s [3 combos]
if he c/c flop with a flush draw [a fit/fold type] if we put him on a diamond 7 then lets say he has limped 78 79 7T [3 combos]

3 hands u beat , 3 hands u lose to....
the pot is 5850 and u re-raise to 6000...
50% villain folds his king cos he considers it to big to call...
50% villain calls his better flush...
u win 5850 50% of the time
u lose 6000 50% of the time

if u make a min re-raise and villain makes a crying call cos its so cheap with his king
the pot is 5850 and u re-raise to 2400
50% calls u win 7050
50% calls u lose 2400

the above is based on your read that villain will bet the river with a king Fatcatstu, basically if villain bets the river 75%+ with combos [range] that beat u then just call...

[Fatcatstu]

just to add to above - [going with your read]
if u believe villain will bet his king on the river then there is only 3 kings left, so lets say villain limped K8s [3 combos]
if he c/c flop with a flush draw [a fit/fold type] if we put him on a diamond 7 then lets say he has limped 78 79 7T [3 combos]

3 hands u beat , 3 hands u lose to....
the pot is 5850 and u re-raise to 6000...
50% villain folds his king cos he considers it to big to call...
50% villain calls his better flush...
u win 5850 50% of the time
u lose 6000 50% of the time

if u make a min re-raise and villain makes a crying call cos its so cheap with his king
the pot is 5850 and u re-raise to 2400
50% calls u win 7050
50% calls u lose 2400

the above is based on your read that villain will bet the river with a king Fatcatstu, basically if villain bets the river 75%+ with combos [range] that beat u then just call...

Ahhh, see i like that Somethign i will deffo try and keep in mind in the future i think, thanks pal