Player interfering?

[nosey-p]

In this case, it was an experience player that made the mistake and like I said earlier the dealer did say 15,000 but since I was sat next to him only I heard him. Even if the player did not here him but the dealer spread the chips so you could see the amount of the bet, is it not your responsibility to see the bet?

I only brought up this subject up mainly because I did speak up at the time, but when the TD came over and gave the ruling the player in question looked at me in a way which made me feel uncomfortable, as if to say keep your nose out. I may be reading into something that's not there as we did get on at the table and had allot of friendly banter.      

[Paulie_D]

Player B says "I have to call" and puts in 1500 chips. The deal says "you have to put the rest in". Player B being confused says "why".

Player's A bet was 15000 but player B miss heard and thought the dealer said 1500. Not liking the dealers ruling he ask for the TD.

Although Player B should have protected his action he does have an out here but it"s a little angle-y.

He never said, according to reports, CALL....oh, the word was uttered but it"s in the context of "I have to call"....and a gross misunderstanding of the amount to call.

There"s an argument that Player B has the option of folding and surrendering the 1500 or calling off the full 15000.

RRoP

12. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or "raise" may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action

Discuss..

[ian.ski309]

I only brought up this subject up mainly because I did speak up at the time, but when the TD came over and gave the ruling the player in question looked at me in a way which made me feel uncomfortable, as if to say keep your nose out.

I wouldn"t take it to heart Wayne, the TD is going to have to trust his dealer and take his word for it - you were merely attempting to provide corroboration. As for keeping your beak out, you wouldn"t be much of a Nosey Parker if you did  

[PantsMan]

12. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or "raise" may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action

Discuss..

The key words here are "if it is obvious". When is it obvious? In this case it may seem so but change the amounts and you get into a very grey area. One person may deem it obvious, another may not. It shouldn"t be down to the TD or anyone else to be interpreting things one way or the other. If he"s put his chips in then he"s called whether he stated call or not. Otherwise do you apply the same rule elsewhere? If you bet 3 times the pot, can you then take it back stating that it"s obvious you didn"t mean to bet that much? If you raise pre-flop to 15 bbs can you take that back as it"s "obvious" you didn"t mean to bet that much?

[Paulie_D]

The key words here are "if it is obvious". When is it obvious? In this case it may seem so but change the amounts and you get into a very grey area. One person may deem it obvious, another may not.

I"ll add the rest from RROP for guidance.

The decision-maker (TD) is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

It shouldn"t be down to the TD or anyone else to be interpreting things one way or the other.

Now here you are wrong...that is precisely why you have the option of calling the floor.

If he"s put his chips in then he"s called whether he stated call or not.

Nope...if I accidentally drop a chip over the line...I haven"t called.

Otherwise do you apply the same rule elsewhere? If you bet 3 times the pot, can you then take it back stating that it"s obvious you didn"t mean to bet that much? If you raise pre-flop to 15 bbs can you take that back as it"s "obvious" you didn"t mean to bet that much?

I think you are misinterpreting the rule here but RULE 1 always applies.

1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

[PantsMan]

Huge difference between saying "I have to call" and putting in 1500 chips and accidentally dropping a single chip over!



I don"t believe it in misinterpreting the rule. It"s all down to interpretation of what is "obvious". If i say raise and throw in 3 blue chips instead of 3 purple chips i can claim it"s "obvious" i meant to throw in the purples (worth less) once i"ve got a read that my opponent is going to call. Basically a kind of reverse string bet. An elastic bet?  

Do APAT actually use RROP? I was told they used individual casino rules? Not saying they shouldn"t, just interested. Particularly as rule 12 seems far too wide open to interpretation to me to be a good rule in poker.

[Paulie_D]

Huge difference between saying "I have to call" and putting in 1500 chips and accidentally dropping a single chip over!

I don"t believe it in misinterpreting the rule. It"s all down to interpretation of what is "obvious". If i say raise and throw in 3 blue chips instead of 3 purple chips i can claim it"s "obvious" i meant to throw in the purples (worth less) once i"ve got a read that my opponent is going to call. Basically a kind of reverse string bet. An elastic bet?  

Do APAT actually use RROP? I was told they used individual casino rules? Not saying they shouldn"t, just interested. Particularly as rule 12 seems far too wide open to interpretation to me to be a good rule in poker.

and..."I have to call 1500" is not the same as "I have to call 15000".

I get your point about a reverse string bet but, in general, the rule is applied to calls more than raises but I would argue that if you are INITIATING action by a bet or a raise then your bet is binding regardless. I think everyone would agree to that.

No, APAT don"t use RRoP...they use their own, (not individual casinos) but the APAT rules don"t cover all eventualities,,,nobodies does...but RRoP is a decent basis for discussion.

[PantsMan]

and..."I have to call 1500" is not the same as "I have to call 15000".

Agreed, but he didn"t say "I have to call 1500". From the initial post, he said "I have to call" and then put his chips in. If that doesn"t count as a call then i don"t know what does.

I get your point about a reverse string bet but, in general, the rule is applied to calls more than raises but I would argue that if you are INITIATING action by a bet or a raise then your bet is binding regardless. I think everyone would agree to that.

I"d agree to that but the rule you quoted doesn"t, it says a call or raise.

"A "call" or "raise" may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action"

No, APAT don"t use RRoP...they use their own, (not individual casinos) but the APAT rules don"t cover all eventualities,,,nobodies does...but RRoP is a decent basis for discussion.

Out of interest what does the APAT rule state? I"d always been led to believe it was individual casino rules. If APAT has it"s own are they on the site?

[Paulie_D]

He said "I have to call" and put some chips in the pot....that"s what this rule was made for.

RRoP (see here)tries to be as broad and yet as specific as possible and we could go round and round about what"s a call and what isn"t.

Deliberately putting chips in the pot, to my mind, commits ONLY those chips in this situation, as I said, I would have given him the option of losing the 1500 and folding or calling the whole 15k.

Is this open to abuse....absolutely...it"s a possible angle-shot (see 2+2) and should be stamped on hard if that"s the way it appears but it certainly seems to me that the player here did NOT understand the amount he had to call and should be given some flexibility.

Or not...each to their own. The player didn"t help himself by protecting his action/hand by clearly understanding the whole scenario.

On the APAT's rules front...there is nothing specific on point but they can be found from the home page or by clicking HERE.

[AMRN]

and..."I have to call 1500" is not the same as "I have to call 15000".

Agreed, but he didn"t say "I have to call 1500". From the initial post, he said "I have to call" and then put his chips in. If that doesn"t count as a call then i don"t know what does.

As I heard it quoted on the day... the actual wording was perhaps along the lines of...

Player - "How much?"
Dealer - "15 more"
Player - "for 15 I have to call" and he threw in 1500.

[nosey-p]

and..."I have to call 1500" is not the same as "I have to call 15000".

Agreed, but he didn"t say "I have to call 1500". From the initial post, he said "I have to call" and then put his chips in. If that doesn"t count as a call then i don"t know what does.

As I heard it quoted on the day... the actual wording was perhaps along the lines of...

Player - "How much?"
Dealer - "15 more"
Player - "for 15 I have to call" and he threw in 1500.

That"s how the player heard it, yes

But i was sat next to the dealer and he said "15 more" then went on to say "thousand" which no won else heard apart from me. then he said "for 15 more i have to call" but the dealer did say thousand. Plus should you take the dealers word when the chips are infront of you?

This post was originally, is it right to speak out when you are not in the hand if you see something is wrong?

Not was the ruling correct  

[Paulie_D]

This post was originally, is it right to speak out when you are not in the hand if you see something is wrong?

It"s a tough one because by your own admission, no-one else heard but you.

Yes, you speak up...but only to say "Yes, I heard the dealer day "thousand" but I don"t know if the player in question heard it".

That"s covered you and you have only spoken the truth.

All players have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the game but at the end of the day it was down to the "calling" player to ensure that he knew what the action was.

[AMRN]

All players have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the game...

^^This


Yes you should speak out

[Fatcatstu]

Speak up, back the dealer, get dealt AA every hand thereafter