Advice Please

[samuel_9]

you played the hand right lad he just got lucky no one would have played it any different unlucky put your mind at rest you  played it right

[Tiger-flash]

Its not often a hand gets to me, but I went to bed last night my mind going 6 to the dozen as to whether I should have played this hand any differently?

It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90

I am the SB and have  ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.

The flop then comes  jc  

I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.

The turn comes   .

I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.

River comes  ac .

I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show   js.

Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Being the super nit rock that i am lol, i agree with the raise. When i saw the flop i would of been weary and checked as i dont like paired flops and possible flush draw (imo),the turn was even worse so i would of checked again and even when the ace came on the river i would be in two minds whether to check and call a bet or to bet about a quarter of the pot (thinking that i am ahead).The problem with raising is that you would be re raised and then you would be in a dilema. so... i would of probably checked again and lost the minimun. I know it sounds weak but believe me i have lost so many times with aces and remember........its only a pair and also the blinds are still very low so stay in the tournie and dont gett married to your hand  

[noble1]

you played the hand right lad he just got lucky no one would have played it any different unlucky put your mind at rest you  played it right

sigh , why did he play it ok? oop, no reads, his thought process throughout which he describes in the thread is not ok imho...
on top of that you have the river re-raise shove on this board texture, in todays no-limit game, mostly opponents tend to make very large value-bets or they go for overbetting the pot in the hope that their bet will look like a bluff, imho this strategy still gets used especially in low to medium stakes cos opponents are still paying off lol lol, if the result had not be shown i"d hope at least one person would point this out... the interesting thing here is how the collective tend to always put the villain on hands that hero beats don"t u think?
this bet big for value strategy will turn full circle eventually and everyone will be value betting / raising smaller, knowledge and awareness as they say

[WYoung83]

this bet big for value strategy will turn full circle eventually and everyone will be value betting / raising smaller, knowledge and awareness as they say
[/quote]

iv already tried it. doesnt work yet.

[TheSnapper]

Being the super nit rock that i am lol, i agree with the raise. When i saw the flop i would of been weary and checked as i dont like paired flops and possible flush draw (imo),the turn was even worse so i would of checked again and even when the ace came on the river i would be in two minds whether to check and call a bet or to bet about a quarter of the pot (thinking that i am ahead).The problem with raising is that you would be re raised and then you would be in a dilema. so... i would of probably checked again and lost the minimun. I know it sounds weak but believe me i have lost so many times with aces and remember........its only a pair and also the blinds are still very low so stay in the tournie and dont gett married to your hand  

Simply put, if you only bet with the nuts you cannot possibly turn a profit and will be getting owned at the tables, to a half decent hand reader your cards are almost always face up.

sigh , why did he play it ok? oop, no reads, his thought process throughout which he describes in the thread is not ok imho...
on top of that you have the river re-raise shove on this board texture, in todays no-limit game, mostly opponents tend to make very large value-bets or they go for overbetting the pot in the hope that their bet will look like a bluff, imho this strategy still gets used especially in low to medium stakes cos opponents are still paying off lol lol, if the result had not be shown i"d hope at least one person would point this out... the interesting thing here is how the collective tend to always put the villain on hands that hero beats don"t u think?
this bet big for value strategy will turn full circle eventually and everyone will be value betting / raising smaller, knowledge and awareness as they say

I increasingly get the feeling from your posts Noble that you somehow feel that reads can lead us to making perfect decisions. Your diligence in the reads department is admirable but I really do think you over estimate the potential for perfect information and completely under estimate this simple fact, the information we have to go on is never perfect and more often than not we are only making a likely best estimate at the max ev option based on the limited information we can glean not to mention how reliable/unreliable that info is.


On to the hand.........

It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90

I am the SB and have  ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.

We 3 bet for value 240 is ok but I prefer 270-300 and you should be making this same bet with your 3 bet bluffs though since he called with J9o our 3 bet for value range can be huge here and maybe we shouldn"t balance against him.


The flop then comes  jc  

I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.

This is a good flop for us ignoring results obviously. We should bet for value against his calling range of Jx"s, combo draws, flush draws, straight draws, QQ+KK (both unlikely but we do get suprised often) 22-TT. Obviously when value betting we sometimes run into better hands and lose but its an aggregate scenario and we come out in profit in the long term.

Again as said earlier, half pot, full pot or somewhere in between are all ok with the oppo"s tendancies the deciding factor, bet the amount that gets him to do what you want him to do.

The turn comes   .

I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.

Overall this is a bad card for our hand since its now somewhat likely that villain will not continue with his draws. That being the case we are also unlikely to extract much value should a free card hit his draw so I like betting here, for value versus Jx,JJ,22-TT and the odd draw that mysteriously thinks it has a chance (unlikely but we do get suprised often)

Here I bet half pot max but more likely 400 of our 1810 behind, we want a call from all his range and we leave 1410 behind and pot will be 1810 at the river.

River comes  ac .

I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show   js.

Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.

Sometimes you run into the top of peoples ranges UL. If you dont value town yourself sometimes you"re not value betting enough.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

[noble1]

i ask for reads because it is almost impossible to sit at a table and have no read, even if the only read is ""i"ve not seen villain play any hands"" ""villain has been opening lots of pots"" ""this is the 1st time i"ve seen villain call a 3bet"" etc etc etc u get the drift i"m sure... now check the forum, time and time again there are posts with no reads, mostly hero will be oop and sometimes the result is known already :"(  add in no stack sizes given, pot sizes or no info on players to act behind etc blah blah....
how can u make more good than bad decisions without reads? u need something to go by..
how can u put an opponent on a range, if u don"t know if he is loose or tight, is he good or bad, do they overvalue top pair, how do they play draws or how do they play monsters...
reads help pinpoint the opponents range based on the action, how they react on the 3 streets, the bet sizing etc ETC..

why are there so few posts without reads?  

in summary i have never written with reads u can make perfect decisions, BUT if your reads are more right than wrong then it stands to reason that you"ll make right decisions more than wrong decisions....
add to this that very few posts mention how they the hero are playing [there image] , this can help in analysing situations better don"t you think?


edit - hell i don"t know why i even bother sometimes to reply, i"ll stick to posting on the horses its bloody frustrating... is this the rush poker forum?

If you want to be Phil Ivey then Rush may not be for you.It stunts your poker growth

[TheSnapper]

[Marty719]

With the large player pools on modern day sites and the constantly growing live poker scene, playing without reads is a pretty important thing to learn.  Knowing how to gather information is very important, but knowing how to play +ev without is as well.

[WYoung83]

Especially on the bigger sites. People are comming and going all the time, most people you just dont see again in the smaller stakes sngs, mtts or cash games.

[cincicrappykid]

Its not often a hand gets to me, but I went to bed last night my mind going 6 to the dozen as to whether I should have played this hand any differently?

It is early on in an MTT, blinds are at 15, 30. I have around 2300 in chips. The action is all folded round to the button who raises it to 90

I am the SB and have  ah :as: I re raise to 240, the BB folds and the button calls.

The flop then comes  jc  

I fire out a 1/2 pot bet (250) to find out where I am, the button flat calls. I am now thinking that the button either has one of the other nines, 10 q or a flush draw.

The turn comes   .

I check and so does the button. I now think that button is definitely on a draw and disregard the fact that they may have the last 9 in the deck.

River comes  ac .

I am now hoping that the button has hit is flush. I bet 500 and the button goes all in , I call and they show   js.

Having re-run the hand through my head I dont see how I could get away from it, they only thing I think I should have done is raised a little more pre flop.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

HERES MINE   YOUR A FISH END OF

[Tiger-flash]

Simply put, if you only bet with the nuts you cannot possibly turn a profit and will be getting owned at the tables, to a half decent hand reader your cards are almost always face up.

i totally agree mate with what you say but im a smart rock and its rare that i get owned at the tables as im unpredictable, ask my team captain technolog  

[cgull69]

Tony thanks for your input, most constructive and well thought out.

Not really what I imagined the APAT ethos was about, but hey ho we are all entitled to our own opinions even if they are a tad juvenile.

I look forward to meeting you at the tables next season.

[deanp27]

It"s just a standard cooler IMO and not sure what else can be added. I suspect you wouldn"t have given the hand a second thought had you simply won the hand.

[cgull69]

It"s just a standard cooler IMO and not sure what else can be added. I suspect you wouldn"t have given the hand a second thought had you simply won the hand.

Maybe so, but I posted in this forum as the title says :

"The forum to discuss APAT Academy"s live and online tuition, tournament strategy and hand analysis"

Apart from Tony"s post the contributions made interesting reading, and stimulated some lively debate within the community which I guess was one of its purposes when set up.

All I wanted was some constructive comments, maybe I was asking a little too much.

As a fairly new member to APAT I now expect to be hung drawn and quartered for daring to question the posting of a well established member of the community.

[TheSnapper]

It"s just a standard cooler IMO and not sure what else can be added. I suspect you wouldn"t have given the hand a second thought had you simply won the hand.

Maybe so, but I posted in this forum as the title says :

"The forum to discuss APAT Academy"s live and online tuition, tournament strategy and hand analysis"

Apart from Tony"s post the contributions made interesting reading, and stimulated some lively debate within the community which I guess was one of its purposes when set up.

All I wanted was some constructive comments, maybe I was asking a little too much.

As a fairly new member to APAT I now expect to be hung drawn and quartered for daring to question the posting of a well established member of the community.

Its disappointing that you allow one post to taint your overall experience in this thread. Aside from Tony"s "special contribution" there is some sound advise to be gleaned from the replies some posters took time write.