Criticised for not folding m omaha tourney hand here

[LongshanksED]

[LongshanksED]

oh

and this isnt a bad beat/guy shouldnt have been in the hand story

im still happy with my play and on the flop it was still 60/40 (proletar favour) if you stove it

[samuel_9]

should nerver criticese your self for gambling thats why your playing cards.BUT you ansered the question in one word............IF...........such a small word with a big meaning.......AND kenny rogers said one day you got 2 no when 2 hold them no when 2 fold them no when 2 walk away no when 2 run.BUT its like me IF i could just remember the last time i made day 2 in the APAT tour

[Paulie_D]

I"m sure you know that overcards are, for all intents and purposes, meaningless in Omaha. Do you really always put him on just top pair?

Look at it this way...the turn gives you 12 outs to make a better top pair. He has 11 outs (even if he has all undercards) to hit two pair or better. About even then...of course, that"s player dependent but still.

Basically, you played a naked non-nut flush draw and once he re-popped you on the flop I"d be folding and looking for a better spot....unless you really want to gambool!

As it is, we whiffed the flop...why not check it and re-examine once he"s acted?

[Marty719]

I open slightly smaller pre (not as small as I would in NLH but at this level we can def get away with making it ~4900.  Another good reason for this is it controls our c/b size.

Pretty player dependant, but a lot of the time people will just commit with the nfd here otf, esp when they full pot it.  I usually wait for a better spot here when at least have a draw to the nuts, or heaven forbid a pair If Im at a tough table that I feel I do not have an advantage over then I might choose to gamble here.  4 overs do not matter as much in plo where its likely if we hit a single pair on the turn it will not be the best hand.

As played, when we have committed 25% of our chips by this stage, we are priced in.  Look on your bet-sizing tho.  PLO is a game where we will be opening a lot of pots.  When we have 30x, we can not open and fold to 3bs too many times.  Controlling our opening size means we are not losing as many chips when we fold to 3bs.  It also lets us stab at pots for cheaper.

[GarethC]

Standard to get it in once you bet. I"d probably check back flop for this reason.

edit:
Good post Marty. I don"t mind minraising preflop though. People still fold, and position is so powerful that you don"t mind if they call. It keeps the pot even smaller meaning you can get away with even smaller c-bets. Any reason you prefer not to?

[Paulie_D]

I have no problem with raising pre-flop if I think it will thin the field significantly but once I basically whiff I"m done with it unless I have a reasonable chance of seeing a cheap turn.

For that reason it is very typical for (most) Omaha players to prefer to limp rather than raise. Not always but it"s more prevalent in Omaha than HE.

[Marty719]

Standard to get it in once you bet. I"d probably check back flop for this reason.

edit:
Good post Marty. I don"t mind minraising preflop though. People still fold, and position is so powerful that you don"t mind if they call. It keeps the pot even smaller meaning you can get away with even smaller c-bets. Any reason you prefer not to?

I prob min sometimes, with the top of my range vs spewers to induce 3bs and if we can play IP against a passive villain who plays flops badly.  In general tho, p/f equity is just so close that I want to control their calling range slightly.  I think in a weird psycological way, people fold a really disproportionate amount more when we make it 4900 as opposed to 4k, and at this stage when the average stack is starting to get low and the blinds and antes are so valuable to our stack size, taking down pots pre is a v good result.

In HU cash, I min 95% of buttons vs aggressive 3b"s, but the difference in cash plo vs mtt plo is fffaaaarrrrrrrr greater than cash NLH vs mtt NLH.

[Marty719]

For that reason it is very typical for (most) Omaha players to prefer to limp rather than raise. Not always but it"s more prevalent in Omaha than HE.

This is very much not the case when u move up the levels.  PLO has become a very aggressive pre-flop game these days, and to see any decent reg open limp pre is pretty lol.  Multi-way pots are not our friend when equitys are so close, Without pfr it just turns into a who runs better game...

[Paulie_D]

For that reason it is very typical for (most) Omaha players to prefer to limp rather than raise. Not always but it"s more prevalent in Omaha than HE.

This is very much not the case when u move up the levels.  PLO has become a very aggressive pre-flop game these days, and to see any decent reg open limp pre is pretty lol.  Multi-way pots are not our friend when equitys are so close, Without pfr it just turns into a who runs better game...

Oh, I agree...but "most" PLO players are at the lower levels (as I am)....and a pre-flop raise (at these lower levels) just makes it more likely that the whole hand will become a bingo fest.

[Marty719]

For that reason it is very typical for (most) Omaha players to prefer to limp rather than raise. Not always but it"s more prevalent in Omaha than HE.

This is very much not the case when u move up the levels.  PLO has become a very aggressive pre-flop game these days, and to see any decent reg open limp pre is pretty lol.  Multi-way pots are not our friend when equitys are so close, Without pfr it just turns into a who runs better game...

Oh, I agree...but "most" PLO players are at the lower levels (as I am)....and a pre-flop raise (at these lower levels) just makes it more likely that the whole hand will become a bingo fest.

Its pretty important to the development of ur (or ne1 else playing these stakes) game that you dnt just conform to the standard and have a limp-fest.  Any skill advantage is negated and it will allow bad habits to creep into your game.

Edit: I would rather swell pots pre when we have the best hand, than play a "he who hits, wins" game.

[Jon MW]

For that reason it is very typical for (most) Omaha players to prefer to limp rather than raise. Not always but it"s more prevalent in Omaha than HE.

This is very much not the case when u move up the levels.  PLO has become a very aggressive pre-flop game these days, and to see any decent reg open limp pre is pretty lol.  Multi-way pots are not our friend when equitys are so close, Without pfr it just turns into a who runs better game...

Oh, I agree...but "most" PLO players are at the lower levels (as I am)....and a pre-flop raise (at these lower levels) just makes it more likely that the whole hand will become a bingo fest.

Its pretty important to the development of ur (or ne1 else playing these stakes) game that you dnt just conform to the standard and have a limp-fest.  Any skill advantage is negated and it will allow bad habits to creep into your game.

Edit: I would rather swell pots pre when we have the best hand, than play a "he who hits, wins" game.

At the micro limits if you limp you might get 4 callers
If you"d raised, you"d still get 4 callers - you might have swelled the pot when you have the best hand (you might be 17% favourite instead of 15% for example) - but how is this not going to still just go down to "he who hits, wins"   (barring the circumstances where you"re up against such weak players that you can steal the pot even if they do hit)

[GarethC]

For that reason it is very typical for (most) Omaha players to prefer to limp rather than raise. Not always but it"s more prevalent in Omaha than HE.

This is very much not the case when u move up the levels.  PLO has become a very aggressive pre-flop game these days, and to see any decent reg open limp pre is pretty lol.  Multi-way pots are not our friend when equitys are so close, Without pfr it just turns into a who runs better game...

Oh, I agree...but "most" PLO players are at the lower levels (as I am)....and a pre-flop raise (at these lower levels) just makes it more likely that the whole hand will become a bingo fest.

Its pretty important to the development of ur (or ne1 else playing these stakes) game that you dnt just conform to the standard and have a limp-fest.  Any skill advantage is negated and it will allow bad habits to creep into your game.

Edit: I would rather swell pots pre when we have the best hand, than play a "he who hits, wins" game.

At the micro limits if you limp you might get 4 callers
If you"d raised, you"d still get 4 callers - you might have swelled the pot when you have the best hand (you might be 17% favourite instead of 15% for example) - but how is this not going to still just go down to "he who hits, wins"   (barring the circumstances where you"re up against such weak players that you can steal the pot even if they do hit)

What usually happens is that someone else hits, we give up and they win the pot. The point is though, that we have the "best hand" meaning that our hand flops better than theirs, i.e. when we flop set over set, or a dominating draw over a weaker draw, and we get the money in as a significant favourite. So we don"t mind putting in more money pre to facilitate getting the money in when these situations occur.

[Marty719]

I don"t agree jon.  I think even at the micros, raising will still thin the field a certain amount.  People are learning this game and getting better every day.  We always want to stay ahead of the curve.  Limping gives no advantage at all.  Raising gives us the betting lead, which as we all know is a very strong tool, even in plo.

Also, our raising range is a lot tighter than fishes calling range.  Therefore, we raise with hands that draw to the nuts, they call with hands that draw to 2nd best hands.  Having swollen pots in these situations is always a good thing.

Im not advocating going mental, but if we maintain a tight aggressive game at these levels, and try and not distance our vpip and pfr too much, then we shud be playing a profitable game.

[samuel_9]

I"m sure you know that overcards are, for all intents and purposes, meaningless in Omaha. Do you really always put him on just top pair?

Look at it this way...the turn gives you 12 outs to make a better top pair. He has 11 outs (even if he has all undercards) to hit two pair or better. About even then...of course, that"s player dependent but still.

Basically, you played a naked non-nut flush draw and once he re-popped you on the flop I"d be folding and looking for a better spot....unless you really want to gambool!

As it is, we whiffed the flop...why not check it and re-examine once he"s acted?

NAKED you should never gambool NAKED youl get a terrible draft or a terrible whiffed   .......paulie-d your spelling is terrabol