Kings early in APAT UK

[UKChamp]

First level of APAT UK: no info on any players, all equal stacks.

On btn dealt KK.
UTG limp
Mid call
I pot re-raise, blinds fold, both players call.
Flop - 647
Checked to I bet the pot, both players call.
Turn - A
Checked to, I check also fearing someone has hit a set and is hoping I bet into Ace.
River - A
UTG checks, Mid position bets just shy of the pot.

The preflop limps dont suggest an ace, although I dont like the UTG limp call. The flop play to me doesnt suggest oevrcards but made hands.  I do see that I have played weakly from the turn onwards and my initial raise preflop may look like a steal and continuation.  Is Mid just pushing me off the pot?

In the end I folded, for three reasons:
1 - its very early and I dont want to commit 30% of my stack.
2 - with UTG in the hand, if I flat call, I have to fold to any reraise.
3 - the flop play suggested made hands.

UTG folded, showing Jacks, Mid folded did not show. He said he only had top pair flop, which may have been the case but I am not sure.  he later seriously over valued 88 preflop versus a clear big pair (AA/KK) and went out, so its possible he overvalued his flop holding if he had say suited connectors.  That said I say dont believe a poker player, and that he had a set, two pair or made str8.

Maybe firing again into the turn would have been a better plan but I was limiting pot sizes at this point and feared I was behind. All in all, im quite happy with how I played it.

What does everyone think?

[kinboshi]

I think if you"d seen the 88 fella play a bit more, and this hand had come up a bit later in the day - you wouldn"t have credited him with anything.

You only had a pair (even if it"s an overpair), it was early in the tournament.  I play these cautiously as I"m worried about donking off too many chips against two pair or a set.  Obviously, once the ace paired on the river you"re now beating any other two pair, so that might make me more likely to call - but like you said it"s 30% of your stack and it"s very early doors. 

If I was in the same position now against those two players (afer seeing them play for quite a few hours) - I"d call.  At the time, not knowing how they play, I would have also folded.

[Jon MW]

If you lose 30% of your chips this early on, you still have quite a healthy stack in relation to the blinds.

Obviously not knowing the players hinders things a lot, the playing by the Mid is consistent with (a) not very much or (b) slow playing a big hand. I think I would call it, but if I was actually in that position in a tournament I would concede that it might be easier said than done.

I think keeping the pot size down earlier on would have helped, a standard raise pre flop and a half pot continuation bet post flop. This should, obviously reinforce the idea that you"re just trying to steal but it would give you the freedom to put another half pot size bet on the turn - the smart thing from one of the other players is to reraise (then you"d have a decision to make), but I would expect them to either fold or to call and check the river - to which you could then check and see whether you"re hand is the best. It"s all good in theory - who knows what would have happened in practice (but I"m going to try and remember this scenario and test it ).

[lukybugur]

Before Flop - you raise and get two callers. Mid has to be put on ATs, a mid pair or better.

On Flop - for Mid to call your pot bet after UTG calls too, I"m no longer putting him on AK - trips for sure.

Turn - I"d say you"re right to check here. I think Mid gains more info on you here though.

River - I think, by this time, Mid has to put you and UTG on decent hands - AK, AQ or pocket pairs higher than 7.

It"s early in the tournament for Mid too and his bet here is one that shows he"s not scared of losing 1/3 of his stack or of the two As or a high pocket pair. To make any bet over half-the-pot on that board I think he"s begging to be called. Any lower than 3/4 pot and it will be suspicious enough for you both to fold decent pocket pairs. A Pot sized bet would be too large for either of you to call with two As on the board. So I think he"s pitched it deliberately high to save having to show slow-played trips and getting a reputation as a devious / lucky player unless he"s gonna get paid off in full.

That"s how I"d play both 77 and 66 (shhh!, don"t tell anyone though) so that"s what I"m putting him on.

If he"d turned up anything else, he"d have fooled me too!

[kinboshi]

Before Flop - you raise and get two callers. Mid has to be put on ATs, a mid pair or better.

I"m as tight as a tight thing in Tightville - and my calling range is greater than that.  It"s early doors, it"s not much to call, and with garbage such as two suited connectors (like 74o for example) I can easily let the hand go after the flop or take a big chunk from someone"s stack if I hit.

On Flop - for Mid to call your pot bet after UTG calls too, I"m no longer putting him on AK - trips for sure.

Again, assuming he"s a solid player.  I make this assumption most of the time as well.  I"m not sure it"s the right thing to do. 

Turn - I"d say you"re right to check here. I think Mid gains more info on you here though.

River - I think, by this time, Mid has to put you and UTG on decent hands - AK, AQ or pocket pairs higher than 7.

It"s early in the tournament for Mid too and his bet here is one that shows he"s not scared of losing 1/3 of his stack or of the two As or a high pocket pair. To make any bet over half-the-pot on that board I think he"s begging to be called. Any lower than 3/4 pot and it will be suspicious enough for you both to fold decent pocket pairs. A Pot sized bet would be too large for either of you to call with two As on the board. So I think he"s pitched it deliberately high to save having to show slow-played trips and getting a reputation as a devious / lucky player unless he"s gonna get paid off in full.

That"s how I"d play both 77 and 66 (shhh!, don"t tell anyone though) so that"s what I"m putting him on.

If he"d turned up anything else, he"d have fooled me too!

Having played at the same table - you"d be surprised what some people were calling large bets with.

[lukybugur]

Pipe down Daniel, I was just trying to make him feel better!  

Having played at the same table - you"d be surprised what some people were calling large bets with

I wasn"t at the table but the first line read; "First level of APAT UK: no info on any players"

The guy, if he didn"t have 66 or 77, represented them well IMO. If you"d only called him ... or if he"s reading this ...

[kinboshi]

I agree.  That"s why it"s possibly better to play with garbage early doors than the so-called "monster" starting hands.  

[UKChamp]

I agree with Kin, had this hand cropped up later (with the benefit of a table image/information)I would have called more easily. Such is the way in tournaments. 

The main thing people seem to be ignoring or maybe its not an issue for them is the UTG player. If the hand had been heads up (no UTG player)I would probably have called.  However it wasnt, so if I flat called and UTG came over the top I would certainly have to fold.

UTG limp called preflop, flat called flop. At this point its hard to put her on a big pair as surley she would have raised on of the previous streets. So to me a mid/low pair or made str8 is a fair assumption. I discount suited conns given that the flop bet was quite a price to draw too.

The turn brought an ace and she could in theory have hoped for me to bet into. So my check was correct I think. When the river brings an ace would I really expect UTG to bet into a possible full house. Much more value in trap checking twice to induce a bluff. So really it makes it very difficult to rate my KK highly given that the Midd player alone looks to have something, when combined with UTG ranges it just gets worse.

If UTG had raised earlier, this could have thinned the field and potentially created an all or nothing elimination hand. Maybe I am thankful, in a funny kind of way, that this didnt happen.

P.S
Not sure I agree with the bet amount statements by Luky. The size of the bet if anything looks more of a steal to me. With such passive nature to the end, an almost pot size river bet looks like it doesnt want a call, not the other way around.

[lukybugur]

P.S
Not sure I agree with the bet amount statements by Luky. The size of the bet if anything looks more of a steal to me. With such passive nature to the end, an almost pot size river bet looks like it doesnt want a call, not the other way around.

I agree, this is definitely one where you have to get a feeling for the player.

As I said though, this would be exactly how I"d play 66 or 77. With the player on the button willing to fire out a pot sized bet on the flop and with UTG willing to call it, I would play it fairly confident that one of these players is still going to call a sizable bet on the river.

You and Daniel though, being sat at the table, both felt he had nothing. If this is an experienced and decorated player I would give him credit for a very clever play, for reading you both well enough to know that you"re both gonna fold, and for making you both think that he was on-the-steal whilst raking in your chips. I do think he had the nuts but I"m a fairly tight player and often give too much credit.

I tend to play by the term; If you think you"re beat at the river, you probably are!

[UKChamp]

P.S
Not sure I agree with the bet amount statements by Luky. The size of the bet if anything looks more of a steal to me. With such passive nature to the end, an almost pot size river bet looks like it doesnt want a call, not the other way around.

I agree, this is definitely one where you have to get a feeling for the player.

As I said though, this would be exactly how I"d play 66 or 77. With the player on the button willing to fire out a pot sized bet on the flop and with UTG willing to call it, I would play it fairly confident that one of these players is still going to call a sizable bet on the river.

You and Daniel though, being sat at the table, both felt he had nothing. If this is an experienced and decorated player I would give him credit for a very clever play, for reading you both well enough to know that you"re both gonna fold, and for making you both think that he was on-the-steal whilst raking in your chips. I do think he had the nuts but I"m a fairly tight player and often give too much credit.

I tend to play by the term; If you think you"re beat at the river, you probably are!

Which is the most feared decoration;Tinsel, bawbels or an Angel?

[kinboshi]

Fairy lights.  Obviously.

[lukybugur]

... you"ve obviously never broken a bawbel with your bare feet - A&E, 07am 25th Dec - far from awesome! :"(