REALLY angry, but now I've calmed down.....is this collusion ?

[RioRodent]

Any rule that cannot be enforced is a non-rule.

I quite agree... could you have word with FIFA about the offside rule, when you have a spare moment?

[Chipaccrual]

I think I also saw someone on a table announce he had 10 10...  Similar circumstances but not entirely sure..  wrong though..!!  Regardless if it is blind on blind, same team mate, its wrong.  Next thing is, same people will be doing it 3 or 4 seats away from each other..

Carl,

If you think there are grounds for reviewing this accusation, then let me know the details.  Players involved, how the action went, table number etc.

Based on what happened with this hand in this thread, the person who announced his cards to whoever was left in the hand did the very same things as got punished, so, Yes,  I do think there are grounds.  But, can I give you the table number and players involved one day later, no.  All I can say is, I was out of the tournament and I was railing a team mate, Destroyer316, and saw it happen.  I never commented in the chat at the time but do remember thinking, wow, you can"t do that.!!

Sounds similar Carl, but as I said, without details it"s a tough one to follow up.  However, you making the point on here that you saw it may well jog the memory of the players involved, which may make them think twice before making that mistake again, so we appreciate the comments.

[SirPercival]

Any rule that cannot be enforced is a non-rule.

I quite agree... could you have word with FIFA about the offside rule, when you have a spare moment?

fwiw I also agree.

I do however have moral standards and will abide by whatever the rule is, whether it is enforceable or not.

[shozboy1]

Something happened on the other table between Diablo and bitofatart - both Solent players I believe as I have just found out. There was one hand where clear collusion took place of a player announcing his hand to the other. I thought this was friendly mind games where we may tell an opponent our hand to put them off or make them believe they"ve made a bad decision. However, I"ve just found out they"re on the same team making it more questionable.

I know Mars of Nottingham also commented whether this was legal at the time in the chatbox, and I also asked the question in the chatbox as to whether they were same or opposing teams - but got no response at the time so gave them benefit of the doubt until now.

It affects the whole dynamics of the game and is not right. I know several Notts players including me, who"ve been there since division 3 are considering whether its worth playing.

Myself and Mars who are both Notts players were constantly raising and shoving on each other without regard for each other"s survival.

I think this needs to be dealt with swiftly because it undermines the whole point of the league and more importantly its credibility and competitiveness.

[shozboy1]

I think the above needs acting on to be fair to Sundeland and allow it to have a line drawn beneath it

[Paulie_D]

As was pointed out to me last week, there is no I in TEAM.  But is there any TEAM in the APAT Online National League?

I raise this point as a newly appointed team captain, acting for Team Carlisle.  With recuritment bringing in first time players to the APAT organisation and this particular competiton, I am being asked tactical queries from those players.

My first comment has been to make all players aware of 888"s stance on "soft-play", which is covered in the T&Cs on this fourm:
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Compliance

15 - Collusion or Chipdumping between players from the same club (or an opponent) is not allowed and will result in the disqualification of both players and any individual points they may score.  Soft playing is also likely to be picked up by the 888Poker compliance / fraud team and lead to the closing of player accounts and possible confiscation of player funds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also tell players that it is there $11 that they are buying-in with and to play the game as they see fit.  I have given no instruction on how to play against team members either.

This brings me to my question - are we playing a team game here, or are we in effect playing an individual game but scoring points as a team? I hope this makes sense and by typing the question i think I"ve answered my own question, although I think it is a point worth making.

I have no problem with the collusion/chip-dumping ruling, or in fact, the way the game is structured and the very fact that we cannot soft-play - or are advised not to.  Again, I still think it a point worth making though.

[chip fireball]

Just to add my few pennyworth...and in my opinion....

At the end of the day this is a TEAM game.

When and ONLY WHEN there are two (or more) memebers of the same team left in the pot, AND NO OTHER TEAM IS IN THE POT, then they should be allowed to disclose their cards as it has no direct affect on any other team....

I play in several other team games on various sites and this has always been the accepted ruling....

i was of the opinion this was an amateur game not the WSOP. as far as the home games go that i play in, then blind on blind with your mates we do it all the time. some times we are lying, sometimes not. all part and parcel of the banter that goes on in games. i was also of the opinion that the above comment represented the norm. to suggest this is collusion....dear oh dear, it hardly makes me sorel mizzi.

at the end of the day its a 6 quid buy in. i wasn"t aware i had to read 4 pages of rules before sitting down to play. as it happens i was actually more concerned with my 4 figure liabilities on woods and mcilroy at the time.

phil ivey stated at the time he was asking for a ruling. everyone else at the table accepted this and we tried to move on. not phil, who went into an hour long tirade USING HIS CAPS LOCK (lol) and repeatedly calling me a cheat and accusing me of all manner of other things. at one point he even started bad mouthing sunderlands football team, even though several people told him i dont support them. as i said at the time there was absolutely zero chance of him saying any of this to my face at a live game. he also admitted in the chat box to colluding in the past via facebook in apat games and getting pulled for it, which was bizarre.

at one point near the bubble ( long after the incident in question ) there were i think 7 at our table and 4 of us on the same team. i was sat with a decent stack between 2 team-mates who are short stacked. the other bloke on our team is chip leader. in effect i"m paralysed and bleeding chips to try and nurse through 2 blokes who altho on the same team i"ve never met in my life and wouldn"t know from adam. i sat for 4 hours to make 6 bucks profit, and threw away any chance of winning to help blokes i dont know get points some "pro" at the table keeps telling me we are going to lose anyway. for the privelege i get over an hours worth of abuse from phil ivey and his sad sidekick, and then have to sit up till gone 1 a.m. dealing with a stewards inquiry.

[BOINGBLITZ]

Leigh, thanx for dealing with this incident so promptly and, I believe, correctly.

To the Sunderland Captain, You have taken the punishment well and for that, you deserve credit.

To Chipfireball, my apologies for some of my comments as I was a little upset at the time. Hope we can shake hands on it one day (As a Baggie, I am used to being put down...as a Hartlepool fan, I am sure you are too !)

I would just like to add though that you seem to be missing the point here. Telling your mates at a home game what you have is a little different to doing it in a team environment. Also, I have not "cheated" on facebook.....all i do is list the players on my team who have signed up on that night.

To APAT, why not add a rule that for Team games "No chat revealing what you may or may not be holding is allowed until after the hand is completed"...would that not solve the problem ?

[mfcrocker]

words

Ignorance is not an excuse to flout the rules. It may not be the World Series but it"s still a cash game, however cheap.

For my money I"m not particularly satisfied with the attitude of the Sunderland team on this one - it"s not like collusion is some hidden away rule that no-one knows about, it"s bleeding obvious and everyone should know about it. There seems to be far too little responsibility being taken in this thread - whether you robbed anyone of an advantage or not you broke the rules of the game.

This left a pretty sour taste in the mouth:

Well done us for taking the punishment on the chin.

No, shame on you for doing it in the first place.

[Shogun112]

When and ONLY WHEN there are two (or more) memebers of the same team left in the pot, AND NO OTHER TEAM IS IN THE POT, then they should be allowed to disclose their cards as it has no direct affect on any other team....

I do not subscribe to this view.  All players on the table, folded or still in the hand, have a vested interest what happens in the hand.   Even if I fold, I want remaining players to clash and for one to go out.   In one team game, I had KK and ran into my team mates AA.  The rest of the table were loving it that we clashed and one went out because it was more points all round.  There is no way in this world were either of us folding our hands even when it was blatently obvious, one of us had a huge hand.  Imagine if I had said, dont play, I have KK..!!  The best I could do was to do a massive shove over the top and hope he realised.

[Marty719]

tbh - I really think a few people here are making way too much of this.  Forums seem to make people more likely to blow things out of proportion.

It was a mistake, but not one done with any malice.  It was apologised for and resolved.  Problem solved.

Its virtually impossible for APAT to enforce non-collusion rules in this format.  I think they look for their members to help them out a bit, and just use common sense.  That is really what this comes down to.  We do not need a new rule-book, just for their members to use common sense and nt make a mountain out of a molehill!!

I think chip"s action was harmless enough compared to someone sitting at the table and ranting after...

[SirPercival]

I think the reaction to this indecent is a much more series issue than the indecent itself.

This is APAT guys.

Live event briefings have the following statement, I have always pressumed we would extend the same values to online too:

As a member of the Amateur Poker Association, we would like you to be aware of your role in our collective responsibility to ensure that the weekend is memorable for every participant, and not just the winner at the end.  We would appreciate you doing your bit to ensure that every player comes away having had the best possible tournament experience.

[shozboy1]

Sorry but i dont want this issue lost amongst all the other posts...

Something happened on the other table between Diablo and bitofatart - both Solent players I believe as I have just found out. There was one hand where clear collusion took place of a player announcing his hand to the other. I thought this was friendly mind games where we may tell an opponent our hand to put them off or make them believe they"ve made a bad decision. However, I"ve just found out they"re on the same team making it more questionable.

I know Mars of Nottingham also commented whether this was legal at the time in the chatbox, and I also asked the question in the chatbox as to whether they were same or opposing teams - but got no response at the time so gave them benefit of the doubt until now.

It affects the whole dynamics of the game and is not right. I know several Notts players including me, who"ve been there since division 3 are considering whether its worth playing.

Myself and Mars who are both Notts players were constantly raising and shoving on each other without regard for each other"s survival.

I think this needs to be dealt with swiftly because it undermines the whole point of the league and more importantly its credibility and competitiveness.

[1TRW1]

I agree this is cheating.

I also think we need clarification on the rules as other teams have admitted things on this forum which could also be cheating.

Notts have team members currently refusing to play due to the perceived level of collusion going on. I think clarification is required minimum.

Also, with apps such as skype and messenger.... even facebook chat, it is too easy for team mates to be colluding undetected, and if people don"t think this is going on when there"s money to be made, they are naive. 

I must be naive then as have never even thought about doing this.

[deanp27]

+1 to Marty. The bloke talks sense