HELP ANYONE - NOT HAPPY

[danmont3007]

Hey everyone

so i played in my first apat tournament this weekend, played in Luton finished a respectable  18th for my first live tournament, so cant complain. But i was wondering if anyone could help me with a ruling that happened to me ill explain.


Some short stacked player goes all in preflop me and one other player call.

im holding qd kd

flop comes   : ::: th

first player checks i then check

turn is then a  qs, other player checks and before i get a chance to check the person whos dealing flops over the next card which is  kh(obviosuly i have  kd qd.


player who went allin at the start starts throwing a mental sayin you cant do that im none the wiser so i accept it. player whos going mad says we must take 3rd card from the bottom for the next card, i move all in other player folds


the 3rd card from the bottom just happens to be a  ah and surprisingly the player who went all in has  ac :: and takes it all
: ::: th  qs  ah

qd kd                               ac :

and im absolutely devastated ive never heard of this rule has anyone else

[Jon MW]

Just to clarify - do you mean that the dealer just dealt the river as normal, but before the betting had finished (i.e. he burned a card and then dealt the river - which was  kh)

or

that the dealer accidentally turned over the next card in the pack (which was the kh)?

[danmont3007]

the queen came out the other guy check before i could bet/check or whatever he burnt a card and put the next card down which was the king

[TightEnd]

Its the correct ruling. If a community card is dealt before the betting on the card before has finished it needs to be replaced by the third card from the bottom

Of course this ruling needs to be made by the TD/Card-room supervisor

Was it self-dealt?

Whether it was or not its an unfortunate mistake, but the correct solution was found

[Jon MW]

It"s just incredibly unlucky then, obviously most of the time that mistake wouldn"t have made so much of a difference.

[Paulie_D]

To the best of my knowledge, the prematurely dealt card is dead.

Robert"s Rules of Poker (as not apparently covered in APAT Rules)

5. If the dealer burns and turns before a betting round is complete, the card(s) may not be used, even if all subsequent players elect to fold. Nobody has an option of accepting or rejecting the card. The betting is then completed, and the error rectified in the prescribed manner for that situation.

Not sure what the prescribed manner is..that"s why we have TD"s

If you aren"t happy, or you are in doubt, politely ask for a ruling from the TD and stick to your guns until you get it. Once you have it, however, live with it.

[TightEnd]

Its exactly the same ruling as given in the last APAT National

Importantly no other player should be making this ruling, don"t just sit there and wonder make sure the TD is called over and makes an independent ruling

Mistakes happen whether we are talking about self deal or casino dealers, but the key thing is that the TD has a set of rules he or she works from and which you can be confident will be applied fairly

[Paulie_D]

Its the correct ruling. If a community card is dealt before the betting on the card before has finished it needs to be replaced by the third card from the bottom

Tighty, I"m sure you are right but.. just for my own edification..is this procedure laid down anywhere?

I"ve never heard of the "3rd from bottom" option, I was under the impression that the "dead" card was shuffled back into the deck (after the next burn has been taken).

[Swinebag]

Its the correct ruling. If a community card is dealt before the betting on the card before has finished it needs to be replaced by the third card from the bottom

Of course this ruling needs to be made by the TD/Card-room supervisor

Was it self-dealt?

Whether it was or not its an unfortunate mistake, but the correct solution was found

i"ve never heard of this rule and am delighted I have learnt my new fact for the day.

To clarify, is there another burn card before you deal the third card from the bottom?

Also, just out of interest, why the third card and why from the bottom?

[TightEnd]

The burn card stands, and then deal third from the bottom

as to why third card from the bottom, not sure!

off to check APAT rules, but its definitely a Grsovenor wide rule as a regular player in their estate

[TightEnd]

ok the APAT rules don"t specifically refer to this (premature exposing of a community card by dealer before action on a round is completed), and I"ll add it

but as it happens I was dealing a table at Manchester national, did the same, called for a ruling and it was the same as that given here

So we have consistency across two Grosvenors, which is encouraging.

[HaworthBantam]

Just to put a spanner in the works, Rich, the ruling that I"m aware of is not the one quoted here.

If the turn or river is exposed before the betting round is complete, then the exposed card is replaced in the deck. The deck is then reshuffled and a new turn or river dealt without first burning a card.

The reasoning behind this rule, I believe, is that there should be an equal chance for the originally exposed card to be re-dealt as any other.

This is a rule I saw the TD in Walsall at the English Championship enforce.

Ian

[Zanshin]

If the turn or river is exposed before the betting round is complete, then the exposed card is replaced in the deck. The deck is then reshuffled and a new turn or river dealt without first burning a card.

I"m sure this was also the rule the TD used in Edinburgh during the regional.

[Paulie_D]

If the turn or river is exposed before the betting round is complete, then the exposed card is replaced in the deck. The deck is then reshuffled and a new turn or river dealt without first burning a card.

The reasoning behind this rule, I believe, is that there should be an equal chance for the originally exposed card to be re-dealt as any other.
Ian

This was my impression too...but I assume that the procedure is a Grosvenor rule.

IMHO, the procedure quoted above seems fairer.

[nosey-p]

I went out like this at Manchester

I raised pre flop (UTG) kh qh, short stack went all in (Button), one other caller (BB) and me, the flop came down rag, rag  kd    

BB bets out, I go all in which is more than the BB had bet. Be for he could act the dealer dealt the turn card which was a  :, TD was called and he said to take the 3rd from the bottom as the turn and the 3 became the burn card for the river. Ace on the river and I am out