KK - Part III

[kinboshi]

Why do you want him to pass a lower pair?  Don"t you want him to make a mistake?

Doesn"t the raise just help the opponent play perfect poker?  Isn"t the idea to make the opponent make a mistake?

[hi_am_chris]

gettin bored of this thread lol theres still a chance jj and qq will play with u and call your bet bet of 1500 or 2000 and procede to stack off against you when the flop  comes three babys and youve probably got hands that had a good chance of taking most of your chips (small pairs) when the flop comes three babys and they make a set.

[kinboshi]

You make the raise, and the flop comes Jxx.  He then shoves. 

What do you do?  If you"re calling for your whole stack on the flop anyway, why not just shove pre?

(if you"re bored with it, you don"t have to read it or reply )

[GiMac]

You make the raise, and the flop comes Jxx.  He then shoves. 

What do you do?  If you"re calling for your whole stack on the flop anyway, why not just shove pre?

(if you"re bored with it, you don"t have to read it or reply )

You have already pushed because you are first to act.

[GiMac]

Why do you want him to pass a lower pair?  Don"t you want him to make a mistake?

Doesn"t the raise just help the opponent play perfect poker?  Isn"t the idea to make the opponent make a mistake?

#

I don"t necessarily want him to pass but I want as many chips in the middle as possible when I"m ahead.

If he hasnt got AA then he has ALREADY made the mistake, of re-raising you. As I said, to take down a pot of this size this early pre-flop has to be good.

Of course if he has a lower pair and is too stupid to realise you have AA or KK and he calls your chips are going in on flop anyway, since you are first to act. So what is the point of holding back pre-flop?

[kinboshi]

So why aren"t you pushing pre-flop if you"re shoving on the flop regardless?

Are you giving him the chance to hit a set, or are you going to be laying your hand down if there"s an ace on the board?

[GiMac]

So why aren"t you pushing pre-flop if you"re shoving on the flop regardless?

Are you giving him the chance to hit a set, or are you going to be laying your hand down if there"s an ace on the board?

Cos I want more than 500 of his chips.

I did say if he re-raises to 5k i"m pushing. But if I push after he has raised to 500 he can only call if he has AA. If I re-raise to 2000 and he has QQ or JJ he might feel the need to re-re-raise to firmly establish my hand, so i get more of his chips and we either go in with me well ahead or he passes. If he flat calls the 2k I still got 8k to play with on the flop, but if he re-raises i"m pushin.

[kinboshi]

I definitely see the logic to what you"re saying. 

This is the response from a decent tournament player on another forum where the problem was first posted:

That"s the wrong way to look at it. As I said earlier, when you make it 1500 it narrows YOUR range. And as James says, we want to WIN the most amount of chips possible.

When you make it 1500 the hand becomes so much easier to play. You have told the table what you have, and you assume they act accordingly. As such, if they are competent you can fold and feel good about it when they 5 bet. And they"ll fold every hand you beat preflop so you don"t risk getting dogged or outplayed and win a small pot risk free.

Needless to say, when you try and make hands easier to play you drastically reduce your EV. We want to flatcall the 500 because his range for making it 500 is probably going to be JJ+ // AKo+. He may also repop with stuff like AQ and 1010 (he probably shouldn"t - but what people should do and do do are very different things). When you raise, he only continues with AA most of the time. Sometimes he would be willing to get it in with QQ or AK but it is very unlikely and quite uncommon.

We WANT to play a flop against JJ or QQ or AK or 1010 or AQ. We don"t want to make a play that gives them the best chance to fold preflop. Plus, we have position on the 3 bettor. So if the flop comes low we just play poker with position on the player who has shown the most strength. There will be 1500 in the pot and 9.5k behind - so we can do a lot of different things after the flop and we don"t have to go broke.

Bear in mind that big tournaments are filled with really crap players. Even many regular circuit professionals are technically awful poker players that have massively exploitable leaks. As such, we shouldn"t be averse to taking a flop here.

Remember:

- Raise if better hands will fold;
- Raise if worse hands will call;

When you make it 1500, it is highly unlikely that either of the above happen (particularly the first one!!). Raising for information is always bad. But it"s particularly bad in this spot. By this I mean raising to 1500 to see if he has AA would just be god awful.

[GiMac]

I see the logic behind his argument too. There are several ways to play this and each one has its merits. Of course the biggest problem here is that we don"t know the other player from Adam and haven"t had enough time to build up a picture of his play.

I"m going to post one of my own, this time with AA in BB against a serial raiser. Let"s see what everyone does with this.  

[kinboshi]

I see the logic behind his argument too. There are several ways to play this and each one has its merits.

Ain"t poker brilliant!!?

Of course the biggest problem here is that we don"t know the other player from Adam and haven"t had enough time to build up a picture of his play.

I think that"s a big part of my thinking here.  Same with the issue of calling an all-in pre-flop in the first few hands with KK or laying it down.  It"s going to be easy to know if I have KK early in Cardiff - I"ll be giggling uncontrollably.

I"m going to post one of my own, this time with AA in BB against a serial raiser. Let"s see what everyone does with this.  

Off to have a look

[Jon MW]

 

4th Hand of APAT Scandinavian.

Mid posn raises 80 to 100
SB reraises up to 400
MP calls

Raggy unconnected flop.
SB checks
MP bets all in - approx 3500 into approx 800 pot.


What do you reckon the SB had?

And when will people ever learn?

[George2Loose]

I would shove esp. in an APAT national. If he has AA fair play- however in a national I would probably see him turn over QQ, JJ a lot of the time and maybe even AK AQ or 10,10.

I won"t mention the person but in Luton I made a standard raise UTG with QQ- got re raised all in from the big blind- dwelled for ages, almost folded but ended up calling (fish) and for shown 10,10

At a higher standard of play I fold (no disrespect to anyone, we"re all amateurs here) tho I suspect a pro player may take a different line with AA.......

[biffa85]

As I have stated previously in short stacked tournies with kk it"s an easy reraise preflop and then push to his rereraise, but in a deep stack tourny I would still reraise, but fold to his rereraise.  Yes my reraise IS announcing my hand, but that does gain me information.  In poker information is king!  his rereraise in some respects is the mistake in the hand, as that announces his hand as likely to be AA and allows you to get away for only 1500-2000 chips.

In my defence this almost exact situation happened to me last night during second hour of play.  I raised, was rerasied, I then rereraised with kk and they pushed - I folded and stayed in.

Any play that saved you from elimination - how can that be deemed incorrect?  their reaction to your reraise helps you define their hand, allowing you to make the CORRECT play.

[George2Loose]

If you"re folding KK often in a tournament- I see it as -EV. In an aggressive game people are 3 betting with AK, AQ and often 99+

[hi_am_chris]

It depends how greedy you wanna be in a deepstacked tourny, if you raise to 1500 maybe u just take down the pot but you also dont allow you opponent a cheap flop with a small pair or weakish ace to hit. On a flop of 2 7 10 how easy is it to fold your kings when if youd reraised you might have got rid of pocket 7"s. I still think even when you raise to 1500 you could get action from a lot of hands your beating but part of it depends on the quality of the field