KK - Part III

[hi_am_chris]

Its very early in the tournament and with the raise i guess it stops players with pp"s 55 and up or whatever "set mining" (read that somewhere). If they call with a small pair and flop a set how easy is it to get away from your kings when the flop comes 2 6 9. If you havent reraised anyone yet you probably do get more value from calling the 500 as you said but if youve been very active in the first few pots you could get action from an AK or QQ JJ TT even making the reraise. Another thing to consider is the standard of players in the tournament in the first couple of rounds. As good players (unlike myself) put it theres a lot of dead money in the pot who may make plays with inferior hands. I dont think either way of playing it is wrong, there are so many things to consider.

[hi_am_chris]

And his reasoning for the 288 bet was in his own words "the raise looks like i could have AK. If i make a standard reraise to 200, his odds for set-mining are way too good" also he says if he assumes the only hands the player is going to play back with are AK QQ and KK its best to build as big a pot pre flop as possible

[kinboshi]

The standard of the opposition does matter.  Also the structure of the tournament is important too.

In a short-stack, fast structured tournament then you have to "gamble" early and if you get knocked out, it"s on to the next one.

[kinboshi]

And his reasoning for the 288 bet was in his own words "the raise looks like i could have AK. If i make a standard reraise to 200, his odds for set-mining are way too good" also he says if he assumes the only hands the player is going to play back with are AK QQ and KK its best to build as big a pot pre flop as possible

He could have made it 300 - but I like the 288!

But like he"s said - his bet doesn"t declare his hand, whereas the re-raise by the player with KK does.  The 288 bet is to induce a mistake from his opponent (with a pocket pair), not to "gain information".

[kinboshi]

I think Playing AK here is far more problematic.  Later on in a tournament, you"re quite happy to "get them in", but early doors it"s not a hand you want to risk a lot with.

[hi_am_chris]

I take your point about the reraise declaring the player with KK"s hand more so. With AK and deep apat stacks i have no problem letting it go early on, the advantage late on is that depending on stack sizes your going to get called much more by A10 to AQ and also calling all in with ak deep in tournys is probably has a positive expectation due to the amount of short stacks who will push with weak aces

[kinboshi]

Yes - agree with that.  I"m hoping to get AA early doors in a National - going to see if I can get someone to call a shove.  Knowing my luck someone with TT will, and they"ll hit a straight...

I have another question though.  Are we the only two on the forum?

[Jon MW]

...

I have another question though.  Are we the only two on the forum?
...

No, but I"m too busy pondering the question, "Is Kinboshi an APAT star?"

[kinboshi]

Dunno - but you"re definitely a star Jon.

[hi_am_chris]

lol guess not but i think Jon is the only other person that regularly checks this board

[Jon MW]

I nearly posted a hand history yesterday of a KK running into trouble by getting all their (substantial) chip stack in pre flop where they could have avoided trouble by just seeing the flop first.

But I didn"t think the player who won played very well either, so I decided that wasn"t such a great example.

[kinboshi]

Post it.   Call the thread KK - Part IV.

[Jon MW]

It"s too basic.

I think some more hand analysis is needed on more complex situations.

[kinboshi]

Tikay posted this on another forum:

2 hands later - the third hand of the Tourney, Pete L Raises, there"s a RR behind, Red moves all-in with the Aces, Pete somehow let go, after the customary acting, (his game must have improved, I"ve never seen him Pass before) & Red found a customer with Kings - a no-brainer play.

Raise, re-raise, re-re-raise all-in.

"No-brainer" call with KK?

Just wondering what range Red could have here (a player who all the players know, and a player who is known for having a solid game).

[GiMac]

What good does your re-raise do?  Does it not just declare your hand to your opponent (as either KK or AA)?

What are you trying to achieve with the re-raise?

Yes you are saying exactly that.

If he is good enough he then passes a lower pair. Actually I think I raise to 2k not just 1500, a 1000 re-raise from 500 looks like a pair but not a premium pair or maybe even looks like AK, it is calleable by a low pair looking to hit a set and is dangerous. 2k should scare him off, and at this early stage with 3k+ in middle I"m happy to take that size of pot down. If he then re-raises to 5k my chips are going in, so he is in no doubt what i have, and like I said earlier if it happens to be the 542nd hand and he does have AA then so be it, I go home complaining about the poker gods and how could they do it to me etc etc etc.

Actually I had two hands very similar to this, one I had KK utg+1 and the betting pattern was virtually identical, against an UTG limp raiser it felt like he had bullets but in fact when the cards turned over he had QQ, I took all his chips and sailed through the bubble to finish 5th in a £150 freezeout. The 2nd in a different tournie I had AA UTG and the betting was virtually identical again he had KK and I took all his chips. It"s a funny game.