Author Topic: Professional Players playing in APAT  (Read 10826 times)

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quinnybobble

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Professional Players playing in APAT
« on: May 20, 2011, 21:30:10 PM »
Have been asked by a friend if he is able to play any of the APAT tournaments as he is thinking of going pro.  

Waz1892

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2011, 22:23:46 PM »
Someone more informed than me will know doubt tell you better, but my understanding is if your friend"s income isn"t soley from playing Poker then he can, as long at the time of the event that is still the case.
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Scousebill

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2011, 10:42:10 AM »
There is another thread somewhere asking the same thing.... I started one... As I queried about the amount of regular winners on the APAT circuit.. aren"t they pro"s or at least semi pro"s.. It was a good thread.
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quinnybobble

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 11:44:21 AM »

There is another thread somewhere asking the same thing.... I started one... As I queried about the amount of regular winners on the APAT circuit.. aren"t they pro"s or at least semi pro"s.. It was a good thread.


Interesting thread Scousebill,  I have passed on this info and it seems APAT should change there name to PAT following the success of recent winning "profesionals" playing the tour.

Chipaccrual

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2011, 11:56:37 AM »


There is another thread somewhere asking the same thing.... I started one... As I queried about the amount of regular winners on the APAT circuit.. aren"t they pro"s or at least semi pro"s.. It was a good thread.


Interesting thread Scousebill,  I have passed on this info and it seems APAT should change there name to PAT following the success of recent winning "profesionals" playing the tour.


The discussions around professional players is a regular one within APAT.  Unfortunately, comments like this, only stir up unnecessary debate.

The "recent winner" I assume that you are referring to, fits within APAT's rules on the eligibility of players in our tournaments.  That particular situation has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, and there are no issues as far as APAT is concerned.

APAT has a simple rule on professional players.  If your sole income is from poker, then you are considered to be a professional player, and therefore ineligible to play APAT events (Other than those designated as open to all).  Any individual cases brought to our attention either by the player involved or a third party will be looked into, and where appropriate, dealt with.

In the past, this has pretty much been self policed, with players who decide to "go pro", effectively self-excluding themselves from APAT events.

Eck

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2011, 12:20:37 PM »



There is another thread somewhere asking the same thing.... I started one... As I queried about the amount of regular winners on the APAT circuit.. aren"t they pro"s or at least semi pro"s.. It was a good thread.


Interesting thread Scousebill,  I have passed on this info and it seems APAT should change there name to PAT following the success of recent winning "profesionals" playing the tour.


The discussions around professional players is a regular one within APAT.  Unfortunately, comments like this, only stir up unnecessary debate.

The "recent winner" I assume that you are referring to, fits within APAT's rules on the eligibility of players in our tournaments.  That particular situation has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, and there are no issues as far as APAT is concerned.

APAT has a simple rule on professional players.  If your sole income is from poker, then you are considered to be a professional player, and therefore ineligible to play APAT events (Other than those designated as open to all).  Any individual cases brought to our attention either by the player involved or a third party will be looked into, and where appropriate, dealt with.

In the past, this has pretty much been self policed, with players who decide to "go pro", effectively self-excluding themselves from APAT events.


This mean The Mole for example can play then as he has other forms of income? I always thought it was stated that it was your main source of income. I must admit I found it strange that a guy that advertises himself as a professional and offers coaching should pass the test. Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.


Chipaccrual

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2011, 12:37:07 PM »

Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.


I"d completely agree with this.

scouse3465

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2011, 13:12:27 PM »


Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.


I"d completely agree with this.


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mal666

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 13:27:39 PM »




There is another thread somewhere asking the same thing.... I started one... As I queried about the amount of regular winners on the APAT circuit.. aren"t they pro"s or at least semi pro"s.. It was a good thread.


Interesting thread Scousebill,  I have passed on this info and it seems APAT should change there name to PAT following the success of recent winning "profesionals" playing the tour.


The discussions around professional players is a regular one within APAT.  Unfortunately, comments like this, only stir up unnecessary debate.

The "recent winner" I assume that you are referring to, fits within APAT's rules on the eligibility of players in our tournaments.  That particular situation has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, and there are no issues as far as APAT is concerned.

APAT has a simple rule on professional players.  If your sole income is from poker, then you are considered to be a professional player, and therefore ineligible to play APAT events (Other than those designated as open to all).  Any individual cases brought to our attention either by the player involved or a third party will be looked into, and where appropriate, dealt with.

In the past, this has pretty much been self policed, with players who decide to "go pro", effectively self-excluding themselves from APAT events.


This mean The Mole for example can play then as he has other forms of income? I always thought it was stated that it was your main source of income. I must admit I found it strange that a guy that advertises himself as a professional and offers coaching should pass the test. Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.



Think the rule has always been worded that way Eck, which make it pretty pointless tbh. The only person i can think of that it would exclude is Cambridge Alex, a .50/1 live grinder lol.
An APAT bink would be pretty massive to him too, open it up to all to save confusion imo.

AJDUK

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 16:03:46 PM »


The "recent winner" I assume that you are referring to, fits within APAT's rules on the eligibility of players in our tournaments.  That particular situation has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, and there are no issues as far as APAT is concerned.

APAT has a simple rule on professional players.  If your sole income is from poker, then you are considered to be a professional player, and therefore ineligible to play APAT events (Other than those designated as open to all). 



This mean The Mole for example can play then as he has other forms of income? I always thought it was stated that it was your main source of income. I must admit I found it strange that a guy that advertises himself as a professional and offers coaching should pass the test. Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.





Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.


I"d completely agree with this.


Nicely swerved Leigh. Let"s just remove the "restriction" and end the debate. "Main income" appears to have morphed into "sole income". There aren"t many pro"s who"s sole income is poker. So it"s not really worth stating.
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AJDUK

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2011, 16:29:30 PM »
Phil Ivey"s mum gives him $100 for his birthday. Being the good boy that he is he decides to put it in a bank account earning him 0.1% interest per year.

Welcome to APAT Phil  ;D
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thinsy147

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2011, 17:26:46 PM »
The problem with who is and isn"t professional......

In snooker there are 96 professionals.... There are many guys who I"m sure go round playing challenge matches/playing in tournaments and earning solely from snooker, but they are NOT a professional.

Are you profesional because you earn more money at poker than any other income? Does this mean if a young lad enters his very first £336 DTD deepstack and wins £24,500 which exceeds his wage of £12,000 a year he is a professional??

If a man earns himself £300,000 a year from his business but also enters a dozen EPT events showing £290,000 winnings and a profit of say £250,000. Is he considered NOT to be a proffesional?

To be honest, I wouldn"t care if pro"s did play.... Bring it on  ;D
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AAroddersAA

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2011, 17:51:20 PM »

This mean The Mole for example can play then as he has other forms of income? I always thought it was stated that it was your main source of income. I must admit I found it strange that a guy that advertises himself as a professional and offers coaching should pass the test. Just saying as tbh I would rather there were no restrictions, I think you will only improve by playing tougher opponents. How many "pros" would actually be interested in a £75 freezout don"t think you would be overrun with them.

Some good and interesting points here. I would firstly say that to police this would be impossible for APAT and they do a very good job already.

I don"t know if there has been any issue with The Mole playing APAT but based on the criteria and the fact he does have other sources of income outside of poker I would be surprised if he was not allowed to play. Again that"s purely based on my understanding of the rules (which may or may not be correct).

A player being a poker coach does not make him a professional player. It would often make him a pretty good player but having a good understanding of shoving and calling ranges etc is a small part of what make a pro player, you could not coach discipline and patience that easily. You could have the knowledge to be a coach but lack other parts of the game that are required for being a pro player.

An alternate example might be Ray Norton (Mondatoo on Blonde). He is confirmed eligible for APAT and he is clearly somebody who is very capable of surviving solely off PLAYING poker, it is well advertised that he does in his blog (which I would argue makes him better than anybody currently playing APAT) and if he is allowed to play them there should be no question about anybody who played this season. Ray is a great bloke and all that but being a great bloke does not change the fact he is what a lot of people would call a professional poker player. This also serves to show it"s so subjective and just because I think this does not mean APAT agree (or should agree).

As for would pro"s be interested in a £75 event, why wouldn"t they? I mean they are not going to travel to go to one, but if it happened to be in their local area why would they not play it? They would have a pretty big edge on your average APAT player so it would be worth it - dunno about time factors against grinding online of course but most pros spend some time playing live. Would have thought taking that sort of edge would be a no-brainer. I know they could do it anyway if nobody knew them but they are still currently discouraged.

My take on it is that I don"t not really want pro"s to be playing APAT, seems to defy the point and the practice whilst it can"t be stopped should continue to be discouraged. Leave it as it is, or better yet make the rule that a pro is a pro if their MAIN income is from poker, which would make more sense and is actually what I thought it was. Again it would have to self police but nothing APAT can do about that as at the end of the day you don"t know what somebody is making from the game.

Doesn"t seem to fit with most peoples views but there we go :-)
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AJDUK

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2011, 19:45:34 PM »
For me the clue is in the name "AMATEUR POKER ASSOCIATION & TOUR"
If you describe yourself as a professional player and believe yourself to be a professional player, then really you shouldn"t play or you"re basically taking the piss. Regardless of the rules.

However, our name kinda dictates that we need to define Amateur for our purposes. So if we"re going to have a rule then it should be (1) enforcable & (2) enforced. "Sole Source of Income" would let a lot of "Professionals" in, so is pretty pointless IMO. "Main Source of Income" is probably more restrictive but still open to debate.

It"s not easy to define a pro poker player but......

People generally make a statement of turning professional by giving up their job. Those who continue to work whilst they earn more from poker aren"t professionals - they likely haven"t decided if they"ve found themselves on the +ve side of variance yet! They"re basically keen amateurs IMO. Whatever their poker income is.

Similarly those who have lost their job (or never had one) and play poker in the meantime aren"t professionals until they give up all thoughts of the world of work. Only they will know when they"ve crossed that void.

ARRGH!! Really really difficult.

The APAT line of self-policing is probably the only sensible/practical way to go unless we change our name. Until then, we can console ourselves that anyone who enters an "amateur" event when they consider themselves a pro player is basically a cheat (whatever the small print says). And the advantage that many pro"s have over amateurs is similar to the advantage that drugs give to athletes. Small but significant. The good thing is that THEY know they"ve cheated. The bad thing is the rest don"t. 
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Eck

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Re: Professional Players playing in APAT
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2011, 20:05:16 PM »
Wow wish I hadn"t raised the point some serious amount of guff in here.

Nobody cheated and lol @ Ray being better than anyone on APAT because he is grinds 45 man sng"s.