Am I doing an angle shoot, cheating or you learn from your mistakes

[LongshanksED]

wild player open shoving every other hand or massive 7-9X opening bet and has been shown to have anything from any 2 suited cards to J3o and always very vocal

final table and he"s UTG+1

8 handed 300/600 and wild player open shoves approx 5500into my BB (i have  approx 8000, rest of table is betwen 2000 and 12000)


folded to me in BB and i peek at my cards and have a wry chuckle and shake my head as i see 62o, as i do this he says youer folding right? you fold? and then whilst i still have the cards in my hand he puts his cards into the muck but still holding them by the end

as soon as i see this i say, "stop, dont move but i call" and ask the TD who is at the table observing "i win the pot right?" and at the same time the player pulls his cards out and flips over aces.

TD then says yes i won the pot as my cards were the only ones live and we dont even need to run the board as his were mucked and the guy goes mental saying that i was cheating

then another player said i was unsporting and was angleshooting and was out of order

i just said, guy made a mistake and its the only way you learn
??

i know one time in a self deal tourney, as i was dealing i raised with QQ in a 5 way limped pot and then mistakenly mucked when i thought everyone had folded but infact i got one call and ive learned not to do it again

[Paulie_D]

House rule dependent but in general his hand should have been ruled live as they were clearly identifiable (he"s still holding them)

Angle on your part.

Some might call it cheating....I wouldn"t be so rude. Some would and "car park" you later.

[duke3016]

Naughty  

[jbworldwide]

I agree with Paulie here.

Blatant angle shoot, and you know it. Please don"t do this at an APAT event

[Marty719]

Ouch...

[AMRN]

not really seeing this is an angle shoot, certainly not the way it"s described anyway. You looked at your cards, and may have shaken your head, chuckled, etc, but you didn"t fold. He told you that you were folding and chose to put his cards into the muck before you had acted - that"s his problem.

That said though, as his cards were clearly identifiable after the mistake, they should stay live and the hand should go to showdown.

[Paulie_D]

not really seeing this is an angle shoot, certainly not the way it"s described anyway.

Sorry to disagree but this is totally an angleshoot...OP tried to take advantage of the V with a "loose" interpretation of a "muck" (which it wasn"t)...KNOWING that the OP was never calling without the V making a "mistake".

OP got on the right side of a wrong decision....If I"m the floor both players get a warning and told to knock it off.

[hi_am_chris]

Ok so if the guy just standard raises and before OP gets chance to fold does exactly the same does it change the situation?

[Paulie_D]

[jbworldwide]

Ok so if the guy just standard raises and before OP gets chance to fold does exactly the same does it change the situation?

not sure what you are getting at here, he is shooting against the personality of the guy on the table and trying to get one up on someone who is annoying. If this was a normal guy and a normal raise, then 62 goes straight in the muck.

[hi_am_chris]

just meant if they both have chips behind and he decides to muck his hand before bb has made a decision in the big blind why should he get his cards back? just wait for bb to make a decision either way

[Paulie_D]

just meant if they both have chips behind and he decides to muck his hand before bb has made a decision in the big blind why should he get his cards back? just wait for bb to make a decision either way

The V shouldn"t have tried to "muck" without being sure that the BB had folded but the general rule is that the cards are not completely dead until they are unidentifiable amongst the rest of the muckpile.

In this case, the OP clearly stated that the V was holding on to them so they were identifiable...the muckpile doesn"t (despite what some may think) have magical powers to render a hand dead merely by having been touched.

The V gets his chips back if his hand is live...which it is.

The angle comes from trying to get the hand declared dead when it wasn"t....and the OP knows it and is trying to get someone to agree with him so he can justify the move.

[MintTrav]

not really seeing this is an angle shoot

I agree - it"s more like cheating.

When you say you "won" the pot, does that mean you got his 5500 as well as the blinds and he was eliminated? Trying to get people"s hands killed on tenuous grounds is one of the lowest acts in poker. If you actually got him eliminated you have no conscience.

The angle comes from trying to get the hand declared dead when it wasn"t....and the OP knows it and is trying to get someone to agree with him so he can justify the move.

+1. The OP should be made to call the all-in and hope for the best.

[LongshanksED]

Way I see it as soon as the cards touch the muck, even if he is still holding them their dead, you read stories and watched highlights of dealer error of mucking cards and players losing the pot. Remember it happened at WSOP.  once in they cant be retrieved nor should they be.

Same as a bettng line. Say you moved your chips over the line to call an all in on river but don"t say anything  kept your hand on them and Villian turns over a better hand, should you be able to pull your chips back over the line? No of course not, it why it"s there, to prevent mistakes and make actions accountable

[AAroddersAA]

not really seeing this is an angle shoot

I agree - it"s more like cheating.

Bit strong that John, it"s not cheating it is within the rules of the game.

However it is an angle shoot. I would hope most TD"s would have the common sense to rewind the action to where the OR has shoved and allow the OP to muck his hand. You can"t say the call has to stand as technically speaking the OP is right and only called as the other player had mucked his hand.