QQ in a 5-bet pot in a cash game

[TheSnapper]

I have to disagree that it is generous.  People at these levels overplay AK in general, and he is more likely to squeeze IP w/ it after a pfr and a flat.  He can actually squeeze a little wider in this spot as AMRN"s flat ensure that utg needs a genuine hand to continue.  I actually narrowed the original range. 

Id say no-one has a large enough sample of these spots to adequately make an assessment from their database, but I think folding Q"s here would be a mistake given our pf actions. 

His range for the IP squeeze is likely very wide for sure but that is largely irrelevent now, since we 4 bet and he 5 bet jams 140 BB"s effective.

Our "just enough equity" is largely based on the likelihood of AK in his range, the fact that we are 140 BB"s deep and up against a solid reg who has position would be enough evidence for me to discount / not include AK in his 5 bet range.

For me it boils down to this.......

This is a breakeven spot, at best!!!! and 50% of the time it will adversely effect our standard of play which will cost us $$$$$

[noble1]

did u have a peek at villains Fold to 4-bet percentage steve before acting?
a wee peek at villains 3-bet percentage depending on position would divulge a bit of info for u since u were 6tabling..
having these at your disposal will/met at least allow u to quantify villains 3betting range.

also i met if playing a few tables against players i haven"t come up against a lot check the Won $ when saw flop percentage, sometimes u can get a reflection of a players skill by there W multiplied by there VPIP. I use the W stat to get a vague idea how good someone is postflop, if decent ish then in theory that translates to there pre-flop game as well...

i prefer proper reads though, but one must embrace technology and make use of it sometimes i guess

[samuel_9]

you should 22 they r the nuts not AQ

[noble1]

EV = [(bet to call)x(1 - equity in the pot)]+[(equity in pot)x(pot size)]

4bet for profit - 26/40.31 = 64.50% [if villain folds less than this then its obvious -EV]

[TheSnapper]

EV = [(bet to call)x(1 - equity in the pot)]+[(equity in pot)x(pot size)]

4bet for profit - 26/40.31 = 64.50% [if villain folds less than this then its obvious -EV]

Not sure where you"re coming from here Noble, if we had rags and were contemplating 4 bet bluffing, I see the relevence but is Steve 4 betting for value in this spot? which begs the question......

What hands in villains range do we get value from when we 4 bet QQ ?

Say villain squeezes here with all of his button open raise range, its a good spot for him to do this tbh so he might raise with.....

22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J7s+,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A8o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o,

if he folds......

AJs-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J7s+,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,AJo-A8o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o,

and 5 bets.....

KK+,AhKh,AsKs,AcKd,AcKh,AcKs,AdKh,AdKs,AhKs

it leaves a potential value flatting range of......

JJ-22,QcQd,AcKc,AdKd,AQs,AdKc,AhKc,AhKd,AsKc,AsKd,AsKh,AQo,

Getting >5/1 implied odds set minining JJ-22 would be a huge mistake, that leaves...

QcQd,AcKc,AdKd,AQs,AdKc,AhKc,AhKd,AsKc,AsKd,AsKh,AQo, and AQo is unlikely to flat tbh.

That is only 31 of his original 500+ combos, AQo accounts for 16 combos so maybe as low as 15.

Are my ranges for villain continuing too tight?
What does 4 betting achieve?

[Marty719]

His range widens when you consider Steve"s pre-flop actions.  He can 5b with the lower-middle section of his 3b range if he thinks he has fold equity.  Steves 4b sizing certainly lowers perceived f/e which is not what we want, but his pf actions will certainly widen it in somewhat.

I"m certainly not in love with just getting it in here, but I think the fact that we are getting the right price against a tight range that may actually be wider than we need means that we have to imo.

[TheSnapper]

His range widens when you consider Steve"s pre-flop actions.  He can 5b with the lower-middle section of his 3b range if he thinks he has fold equity. Steves 4b sizing certainly lowers perceived f/e which is not what we want, but his pf actions will certainly widen it in somewhat.

I"m certainly not in love with just getting it in here, but I think the fact that we are getting the right price against a tight range that may actually be wider than we need means that we have to imo.

5 bet bluff @ 50nl, I"m not convinced Marty think its a level of thinking beyond what"s useful at these stakes, we don"t have a 3b"ing war dynamic to hint at that being possible here either.

Fully agree that villains 3 bet range is super wide but my experience is that an 18/18/6 140 bb"s deep will never pass this particular commitment threshold lite, which will quickly overrule any weakness perceived from Steves flat call. Sure! anything is possible as a once of spew, just unlikely imo.

[noble1]

rather than look at the final result of your actions, work out how u got to this situation..
eg - u flatted the utg raise with a plan, 4 players behind, was u prepared to 4bet any of the villains or did the 3bet come from the one player that u didn"t want to particularly get jiggy with?
if so then why consider 4bet fold? if u thought beforehand that u didn"t fancy playing him oop but u could still profit from 4betting him but that his 5bet range would be super narrow then why not 4bet less?
did u consider moving tables? did u assess your table position/edge correctly.. think back, did ego take over, did u just fall into the trap of auto-piloting?
why not 3bet pre and keep it simple?

just some thoughts that come to mind that imho u should focus on rather than just should i call villains 5bet shove..
so think back i think u"ll learn more if u analyse your mind set at the time...

[deanp27]

I think villains range is widened by Heros preflop line looking FOS with a smaller pocket pair, especially given the rather large 4bet sizing. I really don"t like 4bet folding queens in this spot

[AMRN]

Thanks for all the comments - some food for thought.

So - it played out thus...

I flat called with every intention of 4-betting. The way the table was playing, a raise and a call was going to be 3-bet by someone (anyone) probably 100% of the time. It didn"t matter where the 3-bet came from, I was planning to 4-bet.  My 4-bet was over-sized, and as I said earlier, this was probably due to the laziness of using the auto-sizing buttons (think I probably clicked Pot, then cranked it back a notch).

When the guy 5-bet shoved, I kinda knew I was beat, but didn"t have it in me to fold having come this far. I used all the clock before making a pretty sour call - he had AA.

I think that having played it slow initially, I had hidden the value of my hand somewhat, and the reality is that having played it that way, it would be daft to fold now and miss out on value from hands such as AK, JJ, TT, that were attacking the perceived weakness of my flat call.

If I had 3-bet pre, assuming the guy with AA then 4-bets..... the hand probably reaches the same conclusion. The table had been so aggro, that I wouldn"t have thought twice about 5-bet shoving myself.

[TheSnapper]

I think villains range is widened by Heros preflop line looking FOS with a smaller pocket pair, especially given the rather large 4bet sizing. I really don"t like 4bet folding queens in this spot

I suppose this could be the case and maybe often enough to justify getting 140 BB"s in pf.

why not 3bet pre and keep it simple?

Good question. Often in spots like these we just level ourselves in our attempt to level the opposition, we assume that they are adjusting but so many players just don"t adjust.

Disclaimer:
Got the "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." message as I typed this and have read Steve"s last post. Will post anyway