Was this bad play?

[CrizzyConnor]

I"ll give you some background on myself first of all. I"m pretty new to poker. I only started playing after coincidently being in Las Vegas at the time of the World Series Main Event this summer and ended a couple of my nights there watching re-runs of the 2004 and 2005 World Series on ESPN. I got home watched a lot more poker, searched the net read up on poker then took the plunge and started playing online.

Now I wouldn"t consider myself a great player at all, I lost around £450 in my first 3 months trying to learn the game. I put in A LOT of hours though and was hooked, addicted even, still am. Anyway around September I started throwing together a few results and went on a streak of easily coming 1st or 2nd in $10 & $20 SNGs, then i"d move up a step and lose it all or put it stupidly into MTT"s. Anyway I"ve still got the -£450ish hanging over my head but I just chalk that down to experience and maybe one day I"ll win it back.

Anyway onto the matter at hand. Now bear in mind, I don"t profess to be a great player whilst reading. I"m asking because I can"t see what I did wrong:

Last night I was playing in a $10 buy in MTT with around 1500 runners. Now I played what I think was the best poker in my life, was winning a lot of pots without showdown and only had one time where I got lucky and was told I "sucked out" - I put someone who was low in chips all in when I had an open ended straight draw with turn and river still to come, I hit.

So I was deep into the tournament with about 160ish runners left and I cant recall for sure but I think the blinds were 400 & 800. So the small blind only had around $1000 left and had to go all in. There was one caller directly before me (he and I where the big stacks at the table with around the mid-20Ks in chips) who just called the big blind...

I was dealt  kc  tc and I raised the bet to 2400
the button folded and small blind (as I thought) went all in. BB folded and went back to the guy directly before me who called my raise.

The flop comes with all low cards. I was thinking to myself that the side pot was bigger than the main pot so if I forced the guy beside me to fold I would claim that even though I hadn"t hit and be up in chips. So I bet two thirds the pot and like I thought he folded. Cards were shown and the small blind had missed too. We both missed the whole board and I won the main pot and side pot with King high.

Then I was given abuse and called a donkey by the guy I made fold. The abuse really got to me and I know I shouldn"t have let it but it affected my play and I ended up going out in around 100th place. I kept thinking over and questioning if what I did was bad play or not.

Now in my mind I was thinking for sure I had lost when the flop came but was going to take a shot at stealing the side pot and I in my mind thought this was good play, to gain chips without cards. I would"ve folded if he raised me or called then bet the next round. I was just taking a stab at it and thought I was playing well.

Sorry for the length of this monster but it"s been really bothering me ever since and made me really angry. It threw my game and my anger saw me going from being in the top 15 stacks out of 160 players (and in my mind a good chance to win it) to going out around 100th place. I still think what I done was the correct thing. I just hope some of you might"ve made it down this far and could offer me some of your opinions.

Was my play wrong and if so, why? Or was I just up against a sore loser?

[lukybugur]

Your play was not a bad one but it does address a variation of an unwritten rule of Poker Etiquette that your abuser obviously believes strongly in.

Many will say that, with one player with his tournament life on the line, unless you have a bet-worthy holding at any time (top pair even), it should be checked down. Many ignore and disagree with this though and see the pot in the same way as you - worthy of stealing! Ultimately, you"re in it to win it and you should not feel bad for the play you made. Your big mistake here was allowing "feeling bad" afterwards to ruin your game!

It"s not necessarily the play I would have made and it"s not something I"d tell you is right or wrong as I witness both happening so often. It tends to be against aggressive beginners and in the lower stakes games that this happens most. And it has to be expected ...

[cem211]

This is and has always been a tough subject, but is, I believe, one everyone must resolve for themselves.

I think that in this particular situation you made the correct play simply because of the size of the side pot. As the side pot was of such a size that you were going to be profitable by simply winning it and not necessarily the main pot.

The Abuser is of the belief that you jeopardised knocking a player out simply for your own gain, but he obviously wasn"t holding much either and would presumably have hit on the turn or river. However, this isn"t a "dead pot" and as such I would not passivly check it down and leave my self open to the second oponent catching on fourth or fifth street.

As it happens, you won both pots and the all in player was eliminated, so the Abuser hasnt got much of a gripe other than he got outplayed. Other people may disagree with me and this is only my opinion, but one I"ll stick by if it means that my chipstack will increase.

[nosey-p]

First of all there is no right or wrong way of playing poker just opinions. Personally I would not be in the pot in the first place. MTT is all about survival, entering a pot when the chip leader as already entered, with a medium hand is a no no for me unless you have a premium hand (AA, KK, AK, AQs). However after the flop you played it write, you need to see if he had the goods, but like I said I would not have been in the pot in the first place.

Early on in MTT I turn the chat box off so I don't get distracted or put on tilt. I turn it back on in the later stages as normally the players that are left or more understanding of the game.
     
Wayne

[HaworthBantam]

Your play was not a bad one but it does address a variation of an unwritten rule of Poker Etiquette that your abuser obviously believes strongly in.

Many will say that, with one player with his tournament life on the line, unless you have a bet-worthy holding at any time (top pair even), it should be checked down. Many ignore and disagree with this though and see the pot in the same way as you - worthy of stealing! Ultimately, you"re in it to win it and you should not feel bad for the play you made. Your big mistake here was allowing "feeling bad" afterwards to ruin your game!

I too am a player who tends to follow this unwritten rule, tending to also conveniently forget the ethics that could easily be called into question when colluding in this way with another player.

At the stage of the game, however, that you found yourself at, I would say that there was nothing wrong with your play - even with my dodgy ethics !

I only see this kind of play being advantageous at the later stages of a tournament when the money jumps are significant.

Your big mistake here was allowing "feeling bad" afterwards to ruin your game!

Spot on Neil.

When you sit down at a table, leave emotion at the door. The player dishing out the abuse should also remember this.

Just my 2p worth.

[Mikeyboy9361]

Hi, I agree with NP, and I would never have been in that pot , but once you were, I thought you played it pretty well and aggressively, I certainly wouldn"t have been feeling bad if I were you. As for the abuse, just learn to laugh at it, thats what i do and if possible I like to take the mick out of the abuser. I think it"s really funny that it is always the loser doing the abusing, and telling the winner that they"re a Fish or a Donkey!

[Preedmaster]

To be honest there is no right or wrong way to play the cards and its up to you what cards you decide to play. I"m a big fan of mixing it up a bit and have been playing for a little over 2 years now. There are loads of people out there who cannot handle losing full stop and this has nothing to do with poker! Its like life, you meet nice people and not so nice people. Don"t let it get to you and continue to learn the game, remember he had the problem not you. Good luck for the future.

[Jon MW]

Hi, I agree with NP, and I would never have been in that pot , but once you were, I thought you played it pretty well ...

I"d agree - especially if you stuck to your principle that you would have folded if he had fought back (it"s very tempting to assume that they"re trying to outbluff you and change a plan like that half way through the hand - don"t do it, believe me it"s an expensive type of mistake ).

As has been suggested their is a strong argument to stay out of the pot (any pot) once the other big stack has joined the hand. If you have position on him and you have a good hand then it might be worth trying to take some chips off him - but you have to remember that the other big stacks are the only ones who can really hurt you (or knock you out).

Missing out on a few pots that they contest is worth staying in for longer - that way you have the opportunity to pick up the good cards in position which will win you pots you won"t have the chance to win if you"ve already tangled and lossed with the big stack.

[Mr Tubbs]

This is not bad play with 160 players left it is good play to accumulate chips to go and win the tournament.Now if there was 20 players left i would play the unwritten rule as if it gets you in the money or increase"s your payout by a nice amount.As for the player jus ignore moron"s like this or try playing mtt"s with chat window off so your play can"t get affected.Good luck in your poker glory

[AMRN]

In my opinion, the unwritten rule about checking it down to have two chances of knocking out the at risk player only applies when there is one single pot, ie the all in guy pushed his chips in and got two flat callers, so no side pot was created.  In your scenario, a side pot had been created, and you therefore had every right to continue to play poker to try and claim that side pot. If you win the main pot as well, then so be it, but at the point that you made your bet post flop, your intention was to claim the side pot.

I do get a little peeved though when someone is all in, and you get someone making a bluff with no side pot in play. They are effectively using their chips to bluff to win an empty pot - and that is stupid play. In that situation, I believe the unwritten rule should be stuck to.

The third scenario is where you have something like JJ, and the flop comes 10 high, with a player all in. It is then a reasonable play to bet and push the third player out to protect your holding..... your JJ might be the best hand in play at that moment, but with a very real chance of losing out to the third player on the turn or river.

[hi_am_chris]

If you were convinced you could win the side pot just by betting then u made the right play, if you thought you would be called it would have been better to check it down than to build an even bigger pot to fight for with just k high. There are 160 players left, even if the short stack doubles up hes still short so i think taking the bigger side pot was definately the right play. If it was a decent sized main pot or could cause u to move up a significant amount of money then it might have been worth checking down but it wasnt.

[GiMac]

At this stage of the tournament I would play it exactly as you have, if I was in the hand in the first place and I"m not sure I would have been.

However, if I was on the bubble or nearing the final table I would probably apply the unwritten rule, as it is more to my benefit to see a player knocked out than to win what is a relatively small pot.

[kinboshi]

People get this "etiquette" or "unwritten rule" completely wrong IMO.

Like several people have mentioned, it"s only relevant when it"s near the end of the tournament, and laddering (moving up a place) makes a difference to those involved.  It"s not done to help anyone else out - it"s done for your own benefit. 

NEVER make a play for another player"s benefit unless it benefits you also. 

The person who criticised you for not sticking to the "rule" was wrong.    With that many players left, it"s pretty much irrelevant if the short-stack is knocked out or not.

The other thing to remember in poker is that you"ve paid your entry fee or exchanged your money for chips at a cash game - as long as you don"t break the actual rules of the game, you can bet, call, raise and fold how you want.  If you want to call an all-in bet with 47o, then that"s your prerogative.  No one can tell you what you should do or shouldn"t do.  Obviously, you might want advice from someone after a hand as how you might best play it in the future, but at the table the advice isn"t usually for your benefit - it"s usually someone just letting off steam.

Don"t let what someone says in the chat box (or at the table in a live game) put you off or adversely affect your game.  Wayne"s advice is good for those who do get worked up about what people say - switch the chat off.  I like to use it, but make sure that I don"t get upset by what people say.  

[Jon MW]

...
Don"t let what someone says in the chat box (or at the table in a live game) put you off or adversely affect your game.  Wayne"s advice is good for those who do get worked up about what people say - switch the chat off.  I like to use it, but make sure that I don"t get upset by what people say. 

Good point - I find the chat box can be very useful for assessing peoples mood and their skill level.

Poker is a game of incomplete information, if other players want to leak lots of information to you by what they say in the chat box then that is to your advantage.

Obviously if it does affect your play adversely then that benefit is going to be outweighed by the negative effect it has on your play so switch it off, but I would suggest the most profitable option is to find a way to not let it affect you.

[evilpie]

Another opinion for you.

Don"t play with k 10 if you know you"re going to get called, at best you"re about 50-50. In the late stages it"s worth it to take out a player but even then a flat call would be better to get more help taking him out. If you raise and then get called you"re stuck in a potentially expensive pot.

Once you"re in it though I can"t fault steeling the side pot? Good move I"d say.

I also agree entirely with what Kinboshi says. You"ve paid your money to enter and it"s your chips you"re risking so do what you want when you want. If this idiot had a hand he"d have loved the "donkey" who just gifted him an extra 1500 or so chips. He"s only bitter because he lost.

Good luck in the future