Author Topic: What would you do?  (Read 11019 times)

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BOINGBLITZ

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 01:09:54 AM »
lol....see my thread from Saturday night.....at least this **** had a draw to hit......mine didn"t !!
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TheSnapper

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 01:10:34 AM »
On that flop  jh 8h is a very slight favourite to win the hand
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 01:12:39 AM by TheSnapper »
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BOINGBLITZ

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 01:30:41 AM »
Then he should be shoving and not calling.....2 ways to win surely ??  (Hence my description)
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MintTrav

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 01:42:16 AM »

He called ???.....what a horrible play !
If he is gonna chase his flush for that amount then he wants to be 4-betting all-in because that is where he ended up anyway !!
I agree he should reraise all-in on the Flop when it is 50/50* and he might force a fold, but he is still getting the pot-odds to call on the Turn, at least in a cash-game (though in a tournament he will get knocked out two times out of three).

*As Brendan says, he is a very slight favourite, but so slight we can say it is 50/50.
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noble1

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2011, 01:54:21 AM »

Did I play this right?


re-think your whole approach would be my advice, if u wish to get better then start to question/understand the concept rather than question a vacuum should i / shouldn"t i...
if ur happy just splashing about and having a good crack with your mates etc then ignore what i said above...

get a good up to date cash game book will help, HOH still is a pretty good start point, kill everyone etc etc plus a few more that many a APAT"er will recommend if u ask... devote just as much of your spare time as u possibly can to learning as well as playing...

here is an article that"s also a good start point in which to build your game/reasoning around, remember though its only the beginning of a lot of learning :)

Quote
Using Range Calculations to Make Better Decisions
By Brian "sbrugby" Townsend

Poker in all forms is a simple math game. You have a hand and your opponents have a range of hands. You then make a decision based on their range versus your holding as to whether to call, fold, or raise. You determine this by looking at the equity, or how often you win the hand, against the size of the pot to determine your best action. In no-limit hold"em, when facing a pot-size bet on the turn, generally if you have greater than 50 percent equity in the pot, you should raise. If your equity is between 33 percent and 49 percent, and no fold equity exists, you should call. If your equity is less than 33 percent and no implied odds exist, you should fold. This is a simplistic model, but a good place to start when learning beginning range calculations.

The best players in the world have an intuition about hand ranges that comes from playing hundreds of thousands of hands. They intuitively know if they should raise, call, or fold. Although it comes naturally to some, there are exercises you can do to improve your analysis of your opponents" possible holdings. In order to be a winning player, you need to be able to determine not only your opponents" likely range of hands, but what your equity, or chance to win, is against their range. For the sake of equity calculations in this column, I have used the PokerStove software, which can be found at PokerStove.com.

Let"s look at the following example to show us how an opponent"s range of hands drastically affects the proper decision. You are on the button with the Ah Jh and raise three times the big blind (BB) and are called by the player in the big blind. The flop comes 10h 7h 3s. It is checked, and you bet 6.5 times the size of the big blind (the size of the pot) and are raised all in for another 45 big blinds. The decision to call or fold is rather simple if you can put your opponent on a range of hands. To begin, let"s say we know that the villain is an extremely tight player and will do this only with a set.

Using PokerStove to calculate the equity, against this player we have .265 equity in the pot, or we will win the pot 26.5 percent of the time. So, our expected value, or how much we expect to win on average, of calling is: EV = [(1 - equity in the pot)x(bet to call)] + [(equity in pot)x(pot size)]. So, in this case, our EV = [(.735)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.265)x(58 BB)] = -13 BB. So, with a tight opponent, we should fold our nut-flush draw because our expected value of calling is negative. This means that we don"t have the pots odds to call his raise.

Now, instead of being up against a very tight opponent, we are up against a reasonably tight player who will do this with a much wider range, including top pair. Against this range (sets, top pair, and overpairs), we have much better equity, 46 percent. Now our expected value is: EV = [(.54)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.46)x(58 BB)] = 6 BB. In this case, against the reasonably tight player, we gain six big blinds by calling, though a raise won"t be profitable (assuming we had more money), since our equity is less than 50 percent.

In the last case, let"s look at a hyperaggressive maniac. Again, using PokerStove and giving him a range of any pair, any draw, overpairs, sets, and bluffs, our equity really improves. In this case, we have 73 percent equity against his range of hands. Now, our EV = [(.27)x(-38.5 BB)] + [(.73)x(58 BB)] = 32 BB. So, a call is profitable. An interesting thing has happened in this last case. We have greater than 50 percent equity against the maniac"s range, so instead of calling, we should reraise if we both have more chips left.

I used these three cases to show how equity and range calculations can be used when learning a new game to help with the thought process. This approach can be used when learning any form of poker, whether it is no-limit hold"em, pot-limit hold"em, or stud eight-or-better. Learning to accurately put players on hand ranges and apply them to equity calculations is one of the building blocks to becoming a successful high-stakes poker player. Good luck, and drop us a line at CardPlayerQuestions@CardRunners.com if you have any questions.

Brian Townsend, 25, is a high-limit poker player who plays under the handles sbrugby and aba20. He"s been a professional since September of 2006 in the smallest of no-limit hold"em games. Now he can be found playing $200-$400 no-limit hold"em and pot-limit Omaha on any major site.

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You need a read, you need solid logic and it all needs to fit into a good gameplan. I hate making mistakes. If I focus on going with my read at the moment, I feel okay about my decisions. When I"m unable to make the best decision in the moment (and I figure it out later, or I realize that I wasn"t thinking about the right things and my judgment was clouded), it really eats at me.
The most important thing to note about figuring out the mistakes you"re making is that I don"t mean "stacking off too light" or "spewing," I mean that you make the best play you can possibly make with the information at hand. So, if you don"t bluff the river at some point in time when you"re confident your opponent is going to call turn/fold river-- that mistake is just as meaningful as the times when you tell yourself "he"s not gonna fold!" and then you bluff it in there anyways.


hope this helps...


TheSnapper

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 02:30:47 AM »


Then he should be shoving and not calling.....2 ways to win surely ??  (Hence my description)



Yeah but villain is not the one looking for advice, it might be comforting to be told that the oppo made some mistakes in the hand but other than that its about as useful as a Hermits Address Book imho.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 02:32:50 AM by TheSnapper »
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The Healer

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 09:22:49 AM »
Sigh........so much to learn......not enough time :-\
The trouble with having an open mind, is that, someone will come along and insist on putting something in it

gerry5421

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 09:41:04 AM »

Sigh........so much to learn......not enough time :-\


lol yea was thinking the same ian
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bhoywonder70

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 10:35:00 AM »
 I shove flop....I"m guessing its a v fast structure....n this will do...but he would snap call I guess....would you snap with his holding?...I would probably sigh call.....
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Santino67

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 12:26:30 PM »
Villain has played it OK up to the point where he"s raised on the flop. He tried to get a cheap turn card but nobody on the table really has the stack size to try catching cards once the raise goes in. It"s a poor call IMO, he"d have been better jamming over the top again on the flop to have 2 ways of winning the pot. Don"t think you did anything wrong Alex, sometimes just can"t shake off a fish someone on a draw
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deanp27

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 13:07:19 PM »
Raising the flop and folding to a shove is the nut-lo line IMO, especially when his line may indicate flush draw. It"s close between raising smallish and calling but prefer the call as we have position on future streets.
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fandango

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 14:45:06 PM »
When you raise pre flop I guess your looking for a paint flop or your flush draw? I guess you wasn"t squeezing with your raise sizing?... With you stack size and blind situation I can only see myself in your position shipping it all in when villain takes a stab at pot with a 2.5k lead.. Looked a good flop to me for your hand, deeper stacks then maybe the raise to 8k so if you do get shoved on then you may have to revalue your option.. Your never folding if the guy re shoves your 8k raise.
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Santino67

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2011, 16:30:24 PM »

I get beaten up a lot  ;D

But I am shoving that - but again that is just me  8)

reasoning - none except just below average and close to 10k in the pot

what are you afraid of is my question ?

edit: oh and I get laughed at a lot


We"re all definitely laughing with you, not at you Ger  :D
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TheSnapper

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2011, 16:36:17 PM »
There are a lot of posts itt that focus mostly on the villains play, it"s very common especially so in poker, for people to look at things from a blame perspective ie: if only he had the good sense to fold like he should have then I would have went on to win etc. This can provide comfort to us but does nothing to address the weaknesses in our games. If you set a task for yourself to find reasons why you where hard done by, you will definately find them but that won"t elevate your understanding of the game.

High achievers, in poker as in any pursuit, will for the most part approach their analysis from a responsibility perspective and focus on their decisions only. They take responsibility for their actions and strive to continuously improve and understand that they have no control whatsoever on external factors (variance).

In the hand......


  • Villain over limped an implied odds type hand

  • Villain called a pfr oop getting ~4/1 direct odds

  • Villain flopped lots of equity and led small trying to make his own price

  • Villain called a flop raise getting ~3/1 direct odds

  • Villain called a turn bet getting ~3/1





  • Hero got involved in a marginal spot with no reads

  • Hero raised small offering decent odds

  • Hero raised flop creating a big pot,a tough spot, leaving only a .55 psb behind and 45% of his stack in the pot

  • Hero jams turn offering very nearly correct odds for villains hand



What villain does is beyond your control.

If you look for things you can do better, you will find some and you will improve.
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George2Loose

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Re: What would you do?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2011, 16:47:42 PM »
Flop is clear call.
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