APAT WCOAP Team Event Post event reflections

[AMRN]

Another awesome performance from Wales (did I mention that my family is half Welsh?), coming from so far down the table on the final day!  Quality!!

In my opinion though (without any disrespect to the winners whatsoever), this calls the whole MTT aspect into question. If I recall correctly, Wales were second bottom after all the STTs, PLOs, and HUs, had completed...... to me that suggests that the scoring mechanism places too much emphasis on the MTT section and negates the need to do well in the rest of the competition.

[Mikeyboy9361]

Firstly to congratulate APAT and the team on another fantastic team event, and Wales for doing as the Yanks call it a Re - peat!
Having been there for day one these are a few of my thoughts, and as a none player feel free to shoot me down. I felt the stacks for the SNGs in NL and PLO could have been a bit deeper, one mis played hand and you were crippled. I think you were all wrapped up for just after 11pm, so defo room for a deeper stack.
The MTT had to much of a baring on the overall result, taking nothing away from Wales, I am sure they will agree after the SNGs and HU they would have been out of it under the old points system. It really changed the whole competition into a one tournament event, which was a bit of a shame for the teams that had amassed good results over the two days. It is nice to still have a shot coming into the final event, and adds to the excitement of the closing hours, but maybe coming from second last to win is a bit much. So maybe a look at the points allocated to the MTT.
But as I said earlier a great APAT event, ony wish I could have been there for more than one day. Good luck to all playing the Main Event, and Cymru yn gwneud yn dda !

[Jon MW]

...

In my opinion though (without any disrespect to the winners whatsoever), this calls the whole MTT aspect into question. If I recall correctly, Wales were second bottom after all the STTs, PLOs, and HUs, had completed...... to me that suggests that the scoring mechanism places too much emphasis on the MTT section and negates the need to do well in the rest of the competition.

Comparing the MTT result to the final result supports that view - you could almost not bother with any of the other events and just have the MTT if this format were kept.

But you can only win what"s there so well done on another win for Wales.

[George2Loose]

Quote from AMRN:

In my opinion though (without any disrespect to the winners whatsoever), this calls the whole MTT aspect into question. If I recall correctly, Wales were second bottom after all the STTs, PLOs, and HUs, had completed...... to me that suggests that the scoring mechanism places too much emphasis on the MTT section and negates the need to do well in the rest of the competition.

This may be quite long and a tl;dr but I think yesterday threw up some really interesting points/debate and I think it would be a good idea to discuss these. I know the mods will be busy organising the main so it will give us a couple of days to discuss.

1) First of all, I"d like to say a huge well done to Wales. None of what I"m about to say is sour grapes or detracts from their victory- they got their tactics right and had some superb MTTers in their side. At the end of the day, the rules were the same for everyone and to have 3/4 navigate their way to the final table is some achievement.

2)I thoroughly enjoyed and thrived on the team dynamics that were ever changing. As a tournament player you"re constantly adjusting to stack size/opponent/position etc but in this case it brought things to a new level. I"m not sure how many people off the forum heard but we had a situation 5 handed where Wales had won and Dan Owston started playing with reckless abandon and knocked out Scotland who were playing for bronze. There was some furore and talk of disrespect from Dan from other teams as they were still playing for points. I"ll post my own thoughts a little later.

3)There is a dilemma when it comes to the mtt. If you weight it too heavily than it makes the first day kinda irrelevant. If you don"t weight it enough it"s not as exciting for some teams who could find themselves out of it and you get the whole "Dan Owston " effect. How do we combat this?

I have a few suggestions for the next team champs. I"m not sure how feasible they are but here goes:

1) First of all, I do NOT think Dan was out of order. It"s just another part of the dynamic. When I was sat quite short stacked 2 tables out, I had a Spaniard who had nothing to losing opening half the pots and an Italian on my left who didn"t care much either. Was it wrong that they were messing about? Nope. Team spoilers is another dynamic to take into consideration and as a good tournament player you have to adjust.

2) Take out a small amount from the total prize pool and use it for the MTT. And when I say small, I mean very small. Make first in the team champs 2500 and pay the winner an APAT main event seat. This will see individuals who nothing to lose, something to gain. I"m sure, even for £100 this would have seen some take it more seriously. Esp on the final when there"s medals to play for.

3) Rather than award points on the first day. Have the points correlate to the team"s chipstack in the MTT. So for example you could award 1000 chips per 10 points or whatever works. This means staggered chip stacks. The finishing points in the MTT are what actually matter so anyone can still win but it does mean the first day is just as important as the MTT.

Thoughts?

[Honeybadg]

The "furore" was settled an hour later - no problems - I"d say move on, on that part of the thread.

[AMRN]

2) I"m not sure how many people off the forum heard but we had a situation 5 handed where Wales had won and Dan Owston started playing with reckless abandon and knocked out Scotland who were playing for bronze. There was some furore and talk of disrespect from Dan from other teams as they were still playing for points. I"ll post my own thoughts a little later.

Don"t think there is anything wrong with people"s game going mad when their points are already in the bag. Watch the Party Poker Premier League to see how that particular angle just makes for a different dynamic. It"s not wrong - it"s different, and people just have to adjust.

2) Take out a small amount from the total prize pool and use it for the MTT. And when I say small, I mean very small. Make first in the team champs 2500 and pay the winner an APAT main event seat. This will see individuals who nothing to lose, something to gain. I"m sure, even for £100 this would have seen some take it more seriously. Esp on the final when there"s medals to play for.

Hate this - I would prefer to see the emphasis on TEAM at all times. Once an individual element is introduced, it changes the dynamics to point that TEAM may not be someone"s primary focus, and that would be bad.

3) Rather than award points on the first day. Have the points correlate to the team"s chipstack in the MTT. So for example you could award 1000 chips per 10 points or whatever works. This means staggered chip stacks. The finishing points in the MTT are what actually matter so anyone can still win but it does mean the first day is just as important as the MTT.

I think I like this as a concept - would need to consider it more.


I was lucky enough to play in the two previous versions of this event, and on neither occasion was there an MTT element. In my opinion, those events were better for it.  Last year, England were down and out well before the end, but that didn"t mean we had nothing to play for - in these events pride is far more important than a few quid at stake in an MTT, and we battled hard to try and finish strongly. Personally, I tried to take advantage of the team dynamics and of those who were tangling for the meaningful points.... I was probably just a little more subtle than Dan Owston though.

I would prefer to see this event return to the format of the previous two years. However, whatever happens, it will always be an awesome event for those fortunate enough to be included.

[Mikeyboy9361]

http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=9485.0  my earlier post,fwiw.

[rudders]

...

In my opinion though (without any disrespect to the winners whatsoever), this calls the whole MTT aspect into question. If I recall correctly, Wales were second bottom after all the STTs, PLOs, and HUs, had completed...... to me that suggests that the scoring mechanism places too much emphasis on the MTT section and negates the need to do well in the rest of the competition.

Comparing the MTT result to the final result supports that view - you could almost not bother with any of the other events and just have the MTT if this format were kept.



But you can only win what"s there so well done on another win for Wales.

Thanks to all those who supported us. It is a pity that the achievement is belittled by small minded people who were not even there. Dont bother posting the phrases "with no disrespect to the winners" - it is disrespectful to post on this thread bitching comments about the structure. Try a simple well done, congratulations etc and maybe have the discussion later on. This was a fantastically well run and exciting competition and your comments IMHO do not reflect the feelings of those who took part You are entitled to your opinions but perhaps you should be more repectful in the timing of your posts.

Think about this... all teams knew the format beforehand, also we got three people on to the final table- and were still not a certainty to win. Do you have any idea how well 3 of ourplayers had to play to achieve this? I didnt make the points in the mtt but was top points scorer for the team going into it. I would like to think that my points in some small way contributed to the overall result.

I am quite angry about this- especially the timing of the posts. Just this once if you dont have anything positive to say- please dont bother and let us enjoy our moment in the sun.

Rant over....

On a positive note  a huge thanks to dtd and the apat team for organising and running a brilliant competition. Also to all the teams who took part- the spirit the games were played in was faultless. Well done to france and portugal on their medals and huge commiserations to scotland on coming so close.

I am proud to be part of this team, it was an absolute joy to play with people who I consider to be amongst my closest friends, and an amazing feeling to compete side by side with my son David.

Thanks again to all who were involved in this wonderful competition.

[scouse3465]

Some good points George and to be fair i think the MTT with all to play for is the best and most exciting way to finish it . As in Newcastle we were miles ahead and wales were even further behind us and had a tremendous MTT with i think all 4 players making final table and pushing us into 2nd. It could have gone either way with a few key points which cost us . Mainly when Dylan won 2 races on the bounce for his tournament. As for players messing about and doing things to **** other teams up mainly Ger senior going all in every time i raised to try and bust me cos he hates the english ! Which is up to players at the time , i didnt mind it cos just waiting for big hand to do it which i did but rudders found aces so i had to pass my . Which affter the board was funny because ger s monster 4 6 sooted destoyed the aces !
I think the structure including the MTT at the end is awesome and i great finish to it , One thought for MTT finish maybe only top 3 score although if 4 players left would add another dynamic with 1 of players with 4 left dumping chips or tryin to bust rival team which i think would improve it even more. Stack sizes also good idea to give a bit more of an advantage for team that have done well in other parts of tourney. But if stack sizes staggerred  i think should be teams decisions how to distribute and point scoring stay the same ( i e points still count and played as if all start on same stacks just like it is now)

It is great structure event as it is and doesnt need much tweaking !

[soulclan]

Rudder"s, without your points Wales would not have won, simple as that, you were an equal part of the winning team, don"t worry about the knocker"s or their timing, ENJOY THE MOMENT ?

[Careybear]

Well put Rudders and I agree wholly in what you said.  USA had the same challenge as you as well in having to run deep in the mtt and made up quite a bit of ground.  The earlier events did have a part in the overall score but as we all know MTT"s have more variance so to get 3 people out of 4 on the final table is a great feat and I applaud the Welsh team on working so well together as a team and so hard to get there. 

Great updates to the team and thank you for making all of us railing from afar a part of the action!!!  Have a good rest of weekend

[George2Loose]

Sorry Mike- didn"t realise you"d already started a thread! Maybe the mods can merge them?

[AMRN]

Rudders - you have not taken my post in the spirit that it was intended. I am chuffed to bits that you guys won - outside of the English, I always want the Welsh to win given my family links to Wales. If you remember, I stood and railed you guys last year after I was knocked out as an England player, and I was the first to congratulate you.

It"s disappointing to now be accused of knocking you, when all I am doing is contributing to a discussion about the new structure. The fact that I wasn"t there for day two is not particularly relevant - I followed every moment from my sick bed.

FFS if we aren"t allowed to promote and contribute to healthy debate on a the forum, then what"s the point.  You mention that the timing is bad - well would Christmas Day be better timing that than the day after the event??  It"s current now, and the conversation is relevant now.   I also stated somewhere prior to the event that I didn"t like the new format - and that I thought that the format from the last two years was better.

As I"ve said many times on this forum and on facebook, huge congratz to the Welsh on your third win in a row.

[soulclan]

Bad Timing on your thoughts me thinks ?

[AMRN]

Bad Timing on your thoughts me thinks ?

Like I said - the conversation is relevant now. It won"t be relevant in six month"s time. 

I don"t understand why my contribution to the discussion is considered to be a knock against the Wales team - they won it and I have applauded them. I just happened to have asked a question about the general structure of the event, and would have asked the same question whoever won, including England.

So sorry for having an opinion.