Checking down to eliminate a player

[Jon MW]

Everybody knows the situation where a couple of players will check down the hand without bothering to bet the other person out of the pot, because they are hoping one of them will beat an all in player and eliminate them from the pot.

Another thread made it clear that there are a number of people who will just always try and do this.

But when should you be trying to eliminate the all in player, and when should you be trying to get rid of the third person in the pot?

I"ll start with an example of my own and after that"s been dissected, maybe other examples can be found in people"s hand history"s of either situation - and the thought process and logic as why they checked it down or not.

[Jon MW]

My example regards a hand in this tournament:

World Series of Poker, Event 29, Seven-Card Razz

However this is a semi-hypothetical hand to (a) more clearly demonstrate the principle involved, and (b) because I can"t remember the exact details.

The hand before the hand in question - this happened:

Jen Harman"s stack just took a huge hit, leaving her in critical condition going into the money in this event. With Jen driving the action most of the way and calling down her opponent"s bets on the last two streets, she showed 2-3-5-6-7 but was outdone by the A-3-4-5-7 on the table across from her.

courtesy of www.pokerlistings.com

The example hand was this hand:

Jen was sent to the rails shortly after courtesy of the British cowboy Jon Woodfield.

courtesy of www.pokerlistings.com

The tournament was down from 341 to 23 players, so everybody was in the money.
The limits were $2k,$4, antes $500, buy in $500, average stack about $60000.

The 4 players involved were:
(1) the buy in (who doesn"t really factor much)
(2) Hank (possibly not his real name, but he was American, he had a short but not critically short stack)
(3) Jen Harman (absolutely critical stack, only about a couple of big bets left)
(4) and Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield (Chip leader)

On 3rd street the betting was raising just enough to put Jen Harman all in (this is where the buy in exited pretty quickly)
On 4th street I bet Hank called.
On 5th street I bet Hand folded.

The cards were largely irrelevant, lets say Hank had a made 9 low and I was drawing to a 7 low.

My questions to you are:
(a) Why did I bet and not check it down?
(b) Why did Hank fold?

I know the answer to (a). For (b) I know why I was betting and why I thought he might fold - but I don"t know for sure, so any other theories are more than welcome as they could point the way to strategies to use in the future.

[ThePiranha]

I think you might struggle here Jon.

I dont think razz has quite yet reached the heights of nlhe. Why didnt you post a hold em thread so we could all get stuck in???

Oh, and you were chip leader with 23 left and finished 13th???

Tut Tut Tut Tut

[Jon MW]

I think you might struggle here Jon.

I dont think razz has quite yet reached the heights of nlhe. Why didnt you post a hold em thread so we could all get stuck in???

Oh, and you were chip leader with 23 left and finished 13th???

Tut Tut Tut Tut

But at least I was chip leader.

My aim is to get people to think - they have to think even more if it"s a game they"re not familiar with.

EDIT: I actually think it was just after this that I was chip leader of the tournament, so it"s even worse because it was when there were 21 or 22 left. But I was chip leader on the table here.

And I can"t think of a Holdem example - the question about when to check it down and when not to remains if anybody else wanted to post an example in Holdem or any other variant.

[Swinebag]

a) was it because you had a good hand and wanted value. there was not too much to be gained from checking down JH and even if she won the main pot she would have still been in poor shape.

b) dont know why hank folded his made 9. maybe just trying to protect his position in the tourney and didn"t want to take on the cowboy.

I think you played it ok. dont think i"d have played any differently. JH being allin would not have been a factor IMO

[Jon MW]

a) was it because you had a good hand and wanted value...
...

Mediocre hand - good draw.

...
b) ...maybe just trying to protect his position in the tourney ...
...

That was what I was hoping for. He could fold and ladder his way up the money after only losing a couple of big bets on this hand - but if I bet on every street, he could potentially lose a large portion of his stack if he didn"t win.

But I never saw him after to ask, so it might not have been the reason.

...JH being allin would not have been a factor IMO

In terms of the issue of whether to check down to eliminate a player - that was my general point. I think situations like this where the all in player had hardly anything to start with are one case where it"s irrelevant whether you knock them out or not.
If they don"t go this hand they"ll go soon. Whatever the size of the side pot, the main pot is small so not worth worrying about.

[kinboshi]

It"s limit - that"s a bigger difference to most than the fact it"s not Holdem.

[Swinebag]

Is it sometimes worth keeping short stacks in the tourney?

Their procarious position may cause medium stacks to play even more cautiously against the CL. If this is the case then checking down to eliminate a shortie makes even less sense.

[RioRodent]

Is it sometimes worth keeping short stacks in the tourney?

Their procarious position may cause medium stacks to play even more cautiously against the CL. If this is the case then checking down to eliminate a shortie makes even less sense.

This is sometimes the case on (or approaching) the bubble, a lot of players (with short-ish stacks) just shut down and won"t play a hand until they are in the money... an opputunity for a bit grand larceny!  

Once in the money I don"t think there is much reason to try and keep anyone in.

[kinboshi]

It might also be beneficial to keep a short-stack at the table if losing a player means the table will be broken up.  So I remember reading somewhere, not really something I"ve ever considered during a tournament.

[biffa85]

The main time to check a hand down is when it will increase your tournament EV instead of increasing your likelihood of winning a particular pot.  So almost always the case on the bubble unless you are significant chip leader.

As CL in your spot with Jen allin with microstack.  I would weigh up whether the side pot, plus the increased chance of main pot was worth the slightly increased chance of Jen surviving.  Your chip count meant that it didn"t matter to you who was next eliminated, and with microstacks it may help you to steal from the medium stacks who are waiting for Jen to go, so that they ladder up to a larger payday.

I think that"s the correct time to bet and not chekc down.

For an instance when it would be correct to check it down, simply change your stack to a medium to short one.

[RioRodent]

My questions to you are:
(a) Why did I bet and not check it down?
(b) Why did Hank fold?

(a) Because you didn"t realise JH was in the hand!
(b) Don"t know.

[Jon MW]

...Your chip count meant that it didn"t matter to you who was next eliminated, and with microstacks it may help you to steal from the medium stacks who are waiting for Jen to go, so that they ladder up to a larger payday.
...

That"s pretty much why I bet - and that"s why I said, "The cards were largely irrelevant".

It just so happened that I did hit my draw and knocked her out, but my reasoning was:
(a) I was behind, but if I bet I could outdraw and beat the other player even if he called.
(b) He didn"t raise when I bet on the previous street, so that was one indication that he didn"t have the stomach to gamble to try and win a big pot - i.e. I thought he would fold.
(c) (your reason) - It didn"t matter too much to me, and indeed I really wouldn"t mind, if she didn"t get knocked out.

[Jon MW]

...
(a) Because you didn"t realise JH was in the hand!
...

I think I did at the time - it was only later that I forgot about this hand.

[kinboshi]

...
(a) Because you didn"t realise JH was in the hand!
...

I think I did at the time - it was only later that I forgot about this hand.

You forgot, and have been reminding us ever since.