[Honeybadg]

Higher buy-ins would be good - I would always add give people more scope to qualify for them.

Alternative - have some re-buy events with existing buy-ins - people can then choose to attach or defend - whilst the pot gets pumped up.

Travel and hotel costs dwarf the buy-in - so incentive is to play local events with higher buy-ins.

Higher buy-ins would be bad. I would always make these tournaments cheap enough to allow for new casual players to take part at a reasonable cost.

Re-buys....horrible idea favouring those with deeper pockets (see my first point above).

Yes, travel and hotels can overshadow the buy-ins...but now you want to increase the total and make it even worse for those of us who choose to travel?

If I wanted to play a higher buy-in comp with a worse structure and no social element, I could...but why would I?

If you cast your mind back to last year, we had a £250 comp on offer within APAT....didn"t take off now did it? I think that proves that the demand for higher buy-ins isn"t there even if a tiny minority might favour them. (Sorry Des).

Oh cr*p, I think I just agreed with Jon!

I don"t think it a binary option between £75 and £250 buy-ins.

The Pro-League did not work - it was a side event to the main tour - if there was a higher buy-in main tour event - say £150 - I am pretty sure that it would sell out.

What is the down side - not everyone could afford to buy in directly - make sure there are more qualifying events.

What"s the upside - you might strengthen the APAT tour by having a variance of events that might draw a wider array of amateur players. I would guess that most people who play £150-£300 buy events and not professional players - I could be wrong.

Why would the higher buy-in event have a worse structure - it can have exactly the same structure - or whatever structure APAT choose to give it.

Re-buys - not a big deal - it would interesting - some variance in the tour - it could be limited to one re-buy/add on as required. It takes away the KK vs AA exit early on ...

(Higher buy-ins for abroad - great idea)

L

[Honeybadg]

"If we adjust the APAT tour to fit with the it"s current players as they develop and improve, how will the tour achieve it"s aim of bringing in new blood?"

Is that the APAT's (only) aim?

I"d say a varierty of events would allow all amateurs a chance to develop and progress - or stay within a wider and wider APAT tour.

L

[jayteejack]

i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?/

Yeah there are people who"ve been playing APATs for years, and have improved their game massively.... and are now paying £200/£300+ for their usual tourneys and I can understand why that might make the £75 APAT nationals seem a little small fry.

However, on the flip side, in my opinion, APAT is about bringing new players into the UK poker market, and keeping it affordable is essential to achieve this. As players develop, other tours may become more relevant for them - but that is not a reason for APAT to change.

If we adjust the APAT tour to fit with the it"s current players as they develop and improve, how will the tour achieve it"s aim of bringing in new blood?  

Leave it as it is, and for those that want to spend more to justify travel expense etc, there are other more appropriate tours around. APAT does a marvellous job, and there is still a market gap for it to fill.

[AJDUK]

I don"t get the idea of making it cheap on the mainland and more expensive when we go abroad. Seems a bit unfair on the locals abroad (i.e. Estonians, Austrians, Scottish) and might be a good way of ensuring that they stay away too!

[Paulie_D]

Sky have aimed for a similar market as APAT I believe and have upped the ante so to speak. Just wondering whether APAT would look to follow suit

I get what you are saying George but my question is "What factors do you consider that would make it necessary (or desirable) for APAT to follow Sky"

Is APAT losing ground to Sky...and if so, in what areas?

[daveyb147]

I may be wrong but i thought for the sky live tour there was no direct buy in.You had to qualify online by playing the sats,,so in fact nobody would be laying out the full price for a seat.
If that is still the case it isn"t really comparable with apat events

[Paulie_D]

What is the down side - not everyone could afford to buy in directly - make sure there are more qualifying events.

The downside is that you drive away the people who can"t buy in at the higher level and can"t bink a seat.

The "qualifiers" aren"t really qualifiers, they are satellites to enable people to win a seat without spending the whole amount....that"s a whole different animal.

One doesn"t qualify to play an APAT...one buys in or wins a seat.

[Paulie_D]

i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?

Perhaps I"m missing your point but I"m not sure what you"re asking here...if you mean that for the rest of the season there are no "cheap" events then that"s probably true....but that means you had the cheap events earlier in the year ....but that"s not the discussion we"re having.

Oh...and it"s not Prague. []

[Jon MW]

If you have higher buy ins for the foreign tournaments you might gain a few people attracted by the higher prize fund - but then you"d lose one or two people who couldn"t justify spending out money on travel, accommodation and the (higher) tournament fee.

The overseas APAT's are primarily full of local players, I don"t see why the effect it has on a tiny minority of the field should affect the buy in for them.


NB. putting the buy in up and increasing the satellites won"t balance out, if people are used to buying in direct they won"t switch to trying to win a satellite - they just won"t play. It would definitely put off players new to APAT if there was that perceived extra barrier on top of the higher buy in.

Putting the buy in up to £150 would completely change the tour, it would just be the same (albeit better structure) as so much else available.
Putting the buy in up to £100 wouldn"t have to change the demographics of who enters (and reduce the demand significantly) - but it probably would. Paying a £100 to enter a single tournament is a psychological hurdle that a lot of players (particularly those who haven"t played live before) won"t cross.

If the economy was booming and everybody was awash with cash then the demand might hold up, but as it is then moving it to £100 or above will change the nature of the tournaments.

And once you start looking at changes below £100 then it"s barely going to make a difference. Face it you"re never going to make a living from playing APAT tournaments, good players will get the occasional free good weekend, and the rest of us will just have to put up with the good weekends. That"s worked well so far, why risk it?

[George2Loose]

OK one point at a time:

1) I"m not putting a case forward either way. My aim was never to argue one way or the other- simply to put forward the debate.

2) I made a point to say vary the buy in. Not up them all. I"m just saying if APAT tried a couple more marquee events.

3) In any industry surely each tour aims to supercede the rest. I admit APAT had a niche market but it doesn"t hurt to try and stay ahead of the competition esp. if APAT want to continue to attract the best sponsorship package for the tour

4) If it ain"t broken don"t fix it!!! Sorry to single you out Andy but this phrase is the most frustrating of the lot. Where would we be if we had that attitude? Fixed payouts, no antes and no 150/300 level!!!

[Paulie_D]

OK one point at a time:

1) I"m not putting a case forward either way. My aim was never to argue one way or the other- simply to put forward the debate.

2) I made a point to say vary the buy in. Not up them all. I"m just saying if APAT tried a couple more marquee events.

3) In any industry surely each tour aims to supercede the rest. I admit APAT had a niche market but it doesn"t hurt to try and stay ahead of the competition esp. if APAT want to continue to attract the best sponsorship package for the tour

4) If it ain"t broken don"t fix it!!! Sorry to single you out Andy but this phrase is the most frustrating of the lot. Where would we be if we had that attitude? Fixed payouts, no antes and no 150/300 level!!!

Aha...I"m loving the debate...we seem to have it every year and it always throws out some interesting points.

It seems to me that the ones who can afford the higher buy-ins are in favour of increasing them whereas poor folk like me aren"t...but perhaps that"s logical.

I like the idea of more marquee events (although the calendar is quite full)...subject to suitable sponsors...Hmmm!

[Jon MW]

Something like a few higher buy in tournaments - but not as many as the main league. Made open to everyone, including pro"s. Maybe with some added value to whoever does best?

Even if you change the buy in to a lower amount I still think how few people showed up for the pro league would suggest that their isn"t really the demand for it.

Another marquee event would be cool though, expanding the European Championships into a week long festival like the worlds for example - I"m sure Tighty wouldn"t mind organising that for next year, it"ll stop him getting bored

[TheSnapper]

Leave it as it is, and for those that want to spend more to justify travel expense etc, there are other more appropriate tours around. APAT does a marvellous job, and there is still a market gap for it to fill.

This is the key point imo, Apat found and provided for their niche by offering "affordable well structured events". Some of the problem as I see it is that the "not so affordable well structured events" market has been hit hard in the economic downturn.  They have had to pare back their buy in levels from the heady heights of £1k - £5k and sit closer to Apat now at the £200 - £1k range.

A hike in entry fee may just take Apat out of the range their target audience are prepared to pay. It might be the case that a reduced entry fee will best serve Apat in attempting to maintain its mass appeal and preserve their niche identity. Sadly such a move may hurt some loyal patrons and make it less attractive to travel for multiple events per season.

[Honeybadg]

The unsuccessful Pro-League may well be the argument against all future change ...

What was the aspiration behind the APAT starting the Pro-League?

What was it looking to acheive?

Would it still like to achieve those aims?

If more marquee events sold out would that prove a different point?

L

[jayteejack]

paulie i"ll give you some credit- i dont think you missed my point. the point wasn"t the lack of "cheap" events, the point was and still is: no accessable games for regular APAT players for the rest of the year regardless of exact location in january

i agree that APATs place in the market is for aspiring amateurs looking for a good game at competative prices however things have changed. the worlds at nottingham were a great success but for the rest of the year there are no events left for those APAT regulars looking for a good game which kind of also ties in with the other thread about easy travel access to venues. i personally bookeded leave in advance on all APAT weekends - unfortunately Cork not easily accessable; Luton not possible unless u are part of a forum; vegas- bit far; london in december 250 pound buy-in; jan prague................
SO where has the cheap buyin game for the APAT regular gone?

Perhaps I"m missing your point but I"m not sure what you"re asking here...if you mean that for the rest of the season there are no "cheap" events then that"s probably true....but that means you had the cheap events earlier in the year ....but that"s not the discussion we"re having.

Oh...and it"s not Prague. []