Live Hand - European Poker Championships

[Honeybadg]

Cheers for thoughts ...

After about 5 mins of thinking I did call ... he mucked .. I scooped a c40k pot to take me well ahead of average ... which was c28k.

My thinking on the hand was as follows:

He has roughly triple the average stack hence a pretty wide range ...

All pairs, All Aces, All broadway hands, maybe more ...

On the flop I am ahead most of the time - hence I should play weakly - with few draws on the board.

Turn is pretty brick like except for 55 or A3 - I think I just have to suffer these hands.

I still think I am ahead - hence happy to remain weak.

River is a Queen - have to say I hated this card - it makes things difficult - however his all in seems weird - could be a super value shove but with c12,400 chips to scope c27,600 in the middle it seems I am winning often enough to make the call and go for the win ...

Half the table stunned - half the table - a chorus of good call.

I thought it was a super interesting hand - it"s not the way I would have played it six months ago but I think it is the right way to play it on occasion vs a large stack ... in looking to gather your own large chip stack ...

In the recent Betfair $35k I played and came second there were a couple of hands like this on the final table where it just felt too likely that people were betting with air - in that event I was in position hence much more comfortable - and only two barrels to call but it probably made the difference between flipping at an eight seated table to cruising into the last three.

As much as I can I want to avoid seeing flipping coins as a neccessity and elect to play in interesting spots where you can make significant gains with marginal hands (vs larger stacks or more aggressive opponents - give them rope).

Thoughts on this strategy, as a variant to more ABC play? +EV?

I am still re-pondering it - might be for years??

L

[Waz1892]

Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!

Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!

Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets.  How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...

Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!

Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!

[AMRN]

Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!

Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!

Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets.  How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...

Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!

Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!

This is a good reason for shoving the flop - we don"t want a fold if he has two overcards.... we want him to make a bad call. If he has an overpair, we have some redraw opportunity. If he has an underpair, he may make a bad call.    There are many good reasons for shoving the flop.  If he folds to our shove, well at least we protected our holding and took down a reasonable pot

[Waz1892]

Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!

Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!

Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets.  How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...

Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!

Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!

This is a good reason for shoving the flop - we don"t want a fold if he has two overcards.... we want him to make a bad call. If he has an overpair, we have some redraw opportunity. If he has an underpair, he may make a bad call.    There are many good reasons for shoving the flop.  If he folds to our shove, well at least we protected our holding and took down a reasonable pot

valid points (didnt expect anything less from you to be fair!) but im always worried in these spots as it tournie life..and i have an awful kicker and very suspectable to be flipping to overcards....always to seems too risky and better spots exist

im getting better at being braver tho!  

[AMRN]

Interested in that alot of people are saying CRAI after flop?!

Around 5.5k in the pot at this point and to shove our remaining stack of around 15k odd with just top pair weak kicker?!

Is this to avoid higher cards coming out to making trickey decisions in future streets.  How likely are we getting a fold from him esp if he has 2 over cards...

Seem to risky for me...but always willling to know if this is spots I should be holding mine with one hand and shoving with the other!

Being agg is something im keen to do more as it is the way to play...just timing is crucial!

This is a good reason for shoving the flop - we don"t want a fold if he has two overcards.... we want him to make a bad call. If he has an overpair, we have some redraw opportunity. If he has an underpair, he may make a bad call.    There are many good reasons for shoving the flop.  If he folds to our shove, well at least we protected our holding and took down a reasonable pot

valid points (didnt expect anything less from you to be fair!) but im always worried in these spots as it tournie life..and i have an awful kicker and very suspectable to be flipping to overcards....always to seems too risky and better spots exist

im getting better at being braver tho!  

"tourney life" is sometime over-rated imo, and consideration to it can lead to poor -ev decisions

[deanp27]

So people think if we check/ jam flop for about 18k over a 2.5k bet we are getting called off by Aj etc?

What crazy games do you lot play in?

Only merit of check jamming is making the hand easy, for you and your opponent. I guess you may get called by a slight underpair to the board. However taking the easy route is not always the most profitable route.

[noble1]

hmm interesting, imo u guys should discuss this more...

theory in the thread that is being questioned -

protection of the hand or is it protecting your stack/chips?
protecting equity versus maximising value.
can you get value whilst protecting, if so then what"s the best line of play to do so?
taking a line of play which is deceptive, if you play the same way as everyone else then you won"t have a edge over your opponents. [true or false?]
how do you get good players or someone unknown to make mistakes with hands which aren"t at the top of there range?

[Marty719]

I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river.  Folding pre seems like a better option tho...

[Honeybadg]

I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river.  Folding pre seems like a better option tho...

You are seriously not going to call a min raise from the big bling with 89s versus a big stack?

I am calling for the draws ahead of hitting the naked 8 or 9 but it feels like a great starting spot to me.

L

[deanp27]

I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river.  Folding pre seems like a better option tho...

How deep do we need to be to make this call pre ok?

[Marty719]

I dislike pre a lot, but as played, if we call flop and turn, then I dnt think we can ever fold river.  Folding pre seems like a better option tho...

You are seriously not going to call a min raise from the big bling with 89s versus a big stack?

I am calling for the draws ahead of hitting the naked 8 or 9 but it feels like a great starting spot to me.

L

I think defending can be ok w/ this stack size in some situations, but not vs a strong range from a min by utg+1.  The reason for this is, when you say you are not calling to hit an 8 or a 9, we are forced to stack off on a lot of 1p flops w/ our stack size, and I dnt like this vs his supposed hand strength.

[deanp27]

Even if it"s theoretically incorrect, I would imagine 90%+ of players would not fold pre because this is live tournament poker. Don"t think I would find a fold pre, but then again I find folding hard to do

[AMRN]

Surely given the perceived strength and narrowish range of the raiser, 89s is a great hand to defend with... it plays the flop so well most of the time, and the implied odds in this instance are excellent.

[WYoung83]

 Implied value goes way down when you start hands less than around 50bbs. IMO less than 50bbs is to big % of your stack to defend oop. And also you are heads up, which means there is even less value. I personally find, Suited connectores and small pairs in multiway pots are much better. And like open raising if im  H/J, C/O, OTB and preferbly with more than 50bbs .

[Marty719]

Surely given the perceived strength and narrowish range of the raiser, 89s is a great hand to defend with... it plays the flop so well most of the time, and the implied odds in this instance are excellent.

This would def be true if we were deeper, but it doesnt really apply this shallow.