First Decent Cash...

[CrizzyConnor]

I"m a pretty new member here, I read threads all the time but hardly ever post (apart from one thread I made last week). Anyway I started playing poker in June and I feel have picked up the game quite quickly... It"s cost me around £450 in losses to get this far and tonight I nearly recouped them all and more...

I was playing on Pokerstars on a 180 $20 SNG... I play these regularly and always go deep, sometimes just going out on the bubble but most of the times finishing between10th and 18th (which doubles your money). I"ve been frustrated for months because I keep making it to this point and putting in a lot of hours to only double my money but tonight I had my chance...

Made it down to the final 9 and the real money was in sight... stole the odd pot here and there and won a hand or two then when it was down to 5 players I made some moves and managed to move into the chip lead from nowhere. Then with 4 players left the 2nd and 3rd stacks went all in against each other and this made the 2nd place stack move into the chiplead. We were both dominating the chips of the 3rd place guy but the chipleader was totally useless. So many times he checked right to the river when he could"ve bet the other guy off pots of 10,000 chips etc (I know because I bet him off numerous pots) but the chipleader was utterly USELESS. Granted both of them had nothing in these hands and the small stick was winning with high card etc but he COULD"VE bet him off it a million times which made me really angry. I know you play for yourself and nobody else but c"mon, it would"ve benefitted him too!

Anyway the chipleader raises 4xBig Blind and I re-raise to which he re-raises me all-in... Im sitting with  ad qd so after a min decide to call even though I know this could be me out the tourny. Cards over and he shows  ah jc and surprise surprise the flop brings a Jack...

So annoyed... I should be happy that I cashed for $420 but it feels like i"ve lost over $600, or $300 at least (2nd place = $720). The small stack should"ve been gone long before I committed... I can"t believe how bad the guys were playing once we got to the last 5! I checked the two guys on sharkscope after the tourny finished and I know i"ve got like $950 in losses and can"t really speak but these guys had both lost at least $2,500 and their graphs were almost straight downward lines...

Ahhh well, that"s poker I guess, take the ups with the downs....

Does anybody else ever feel that despite having a decent win (3rd, 4th, 5th place) that they"ve lost money rather than actually gained? lol, I should stop whining I guess and just try look at the bright side... Another 3rd place and my poker earnings will be back in the black!

[hi_am_chris]

Yep know it well lol finnished tenth in the pokerstars 5 dollar rebuys foe 150 or so dollars cant remember exactly but i went out all in pre flop with aq v aT and he flopped a ten, it would have put me 5th in chips and all the prizes from like 6th up were 1000 dollar plus. Was soooooooooooo gutted, then recently (late november) was playin the 27 dollar (somthing or other guarenteed) and went deep, i think i went out around 50th or so in a pot that put the winner chipleader, got my money in with kk v a9 v a7 for a 300,000 pot, river was an ace lol Same night though i was also playing a 5 dollar 1400 player tourny, and managed to finnished second for 830 dollars so that made up for it  alittle.

[George2Loose]

First of all well done on your first "decent" cash!!!

However I do think your criticism of the chipleader is an interesting point.

I"ve often heard people make comments like this.... "The chip leader wasn"t aggressive enough" "He kept folding to the short stack" etc etc

Personally my point of view is 2 fold:

1) Sometimes as daft as sounds, it"s worthwhile keeping the short stack around when chip leader simply cos you can rob more chips from the medium stacks

2) If you"re focussing on what the chip leader should or shouldn"t be doing you"re probably not playing your A game. Don"t worry about what others "should" be doing- concentrate on what you should be doing and you"ll profit more in future.

Yes you were unlucky to lose with AQ vs AJ and you should have doubled up and cashed for more. But in the time you were berating the big stacks play were you yourself missing spots to perhaps parlay your way up the ladder?

Just my 2 cents.....

[APAT]

First of all well done on your first "decent" cash!!!

However I do think your criticism of the chipleader is an interesting point.

I"ve often heard people make comments like this.... "The chip leader wasn"t aggressive enough" "He kept folding to the short stack" etc etc

Personally my point of view is 2 fold:

1) Sometimes as daft as sounds, it"s worthwhile keeping the short stack around when chip leader simply cos you can rob more chips from the medium stacks

2) If you"re focussing on what the chip leader should or shouldn"t be doing you"re probably not playing your A game. Don"t worry about what others "should" be doing- concentrate on what you should be doing and you"ll profit more in future.

Yes you were unlucky to lose with AQ vs AJ and you should have doubled up and cashed for more. But in the time you were berating the big stacks play were you yourself missing spots to perhaps parlay your way up the ladder?

Just my 2 cents.....

Many congratulations on your cash Crizzy.  I have to say, the above sounds like really good advice to me. 

Good luck in going a step or two further in this event in coming weeks.

[Swinebag]

1) Sometimes as daft as sounds, it"s worthwhile keeping the short stack around when chip leader simply cos you can rob more chips from the medium stacks

I play a lot of SNG"s and use this strategy in the bubble when chip leader, much to the annoyance of the other 2 stacks, who are looking to move into the cash and to me to bust the shortie.

I"d do it in MTT"s as well, if I was good enough to make a final table

[kinboshi]

It is good advice.   I"ve reached final tables as chip leader and then donked my stack off trying to "use it as a weapon" against the short stacks.

One of the APAT online events last season, I got to the final table as chip leader (after my 88 outdrew KK all-in preflop in the middle of the tournament).

There was one player at the table who I kept tangling with, each time getting my chips in ahead as a slight favourite.  But each time I was outdrawn (nothing dramatic except for my AQ losing to his A7 all-in pre).  Well, from a comfortable chip lead, I went out in 5th.  He went on to win it, and he wouldn"t have done that without my donations.  It wasn"t my job to "bust him", I should have focused on maintaining and slowly growing my stack, rather than being worried about going up against him in big pots.

Great effort though Crizzy.  Final tabling on those isn"t easy, and you need the luck to take one of them down.

[AMRN]

If I"m chip leader on the bubble in a one table sit and go, I will be all in every hand with any two cards (assuming the other players are not the type to call and put themselves at risk with ace high) in the knowledge that they are all waiting for someone else to get knocked out.....

But in an MTT, it happens so often that when the bubble bursts, or when the money steps up a level, everyone goes maniac and chucks chips in with marginal hands - it becomes a bingo situation and your big stack counts for very little..... the time when the big stacks carries most value is just before the bubble bursts or money steps up..... and at this point I"m happy to take down loads of small pots and steal from the medium stacks - they are usually loathed to risk tangling with the big stack as they assume the shortie is about go bust out.

So, my point is that as chip leader, I have a vested interest in seeing the short stack stick around for a while. And in your example, perhaps the chip leader was thinking the same.....?

[UKChamp]

Well done. Hopefully this paves the way for more of the same in the future!

Have to agree with George, some sound advice on retaining the short stack.

[evilpie]

1) Sometimes as daft as sounds, it"s worthwhile keeping the short stack around when chip leader simply cos you can rob more chips from the medium stacks

Never thought of it this way before but it makes really good sense. Thanks for the tip.

Back to the topic. Congrats on your first cash. I waited quite a while for my first then went on a nice run so hopefully you"ll do the same.

I managed to go deep in the Pstars 50k (16th and 18th) before going out with bad play. Both times I had been chip leader in the late stages but hit the panic button when I found myself down in 5th or 6th! Both times it was AJ in bad position and I got stuck to the hands when they hit but instinct told me I was probably behind.

Not sure what it was that made me tilt but I think concentrating on other stacks rather than my own was an influence.

And yes in both these instances I saw it as losing up to $15k rather than winning a pretty poor $450ish  

PS currently in a Pstars 180 player $20 and 4th (chip leader 10 mins ago). I"ll let you know how it goes

[CrizzyConnor]

First of all well done on your first "decent" cash!!!


1) Sometimes as daft as sounds, it"s worthwhile keeping the short stack around when chip leader simply cos you can rob more chips from the medium stacks

2) If you"re focussing on what the chip leader should or shouldn"t be doing you"re probably not playing your A game. Don"t worry about what others "should" be doing- concentrate on what you should be doing and you"ll profit more in future.

Firstly, apologies if my use of the word "decent" came accross wrong... Im from Glasgow and when I say "decent" I mean GOOD, maybe it"s a local thing. I know the definition of decent should just mean adequate but I"m actually really happy with the amount it is a great cash. Anyway in retrospect i"m not as angry... I wrote the thread soon after it happened and was fuming at the time but that"s life - I still got a great return at the end of the day.

You"re points are pretty interesting and i"ll take them on board for future games. I don"t really think I let the chipleaders play affect me too much it was just something that made me angry AFTER I was knocked out, not during the play... as I was sitting pretty comfortably in my eyes and didn"t feel rushed into action - I just came up against an unfortunate hand and took a gamble. Such is life. Onwards and upwards...

I"m going to try a few more $20 180 SnGs as I always seem to go deep in them most of the time these days. I feel the size of the field is small enough that if you play a good game and dont go too crazy then you will definitely go relatively deep(top 20%) more times than not. I keep throwing money away at larger fields with smaller buy ins but thats always a bit of a crapshoot I feel and you definitely need luck. EvilPie let us know how you got on in your game...

Thanks again for the replies!

[CrizzyConnor]

Just finished another 180 SnG... only the $4.40 one though. Finished 11th - went out on bad play on my part kinda. Guy raised blinds 6 times and he had been making these types of moves for a while so I thought he was just trying to steal blinds again... I had   - first hand i"d had really since final 18 and I re-raised him x3 to which he re-raised me all in. I had already committed most of my chips so had to call and I look up towards his name only to see  :as: ah ... I was 4th in chips too. lol. well, I was going for the win and we were at the last 12 for about 25 mins so was getting quite bored with nothing happening and no cards.

[biffa85]

Firstly well done on your cash.  But one point I feel needs making your final hand, why tangle with the CL with AQo, yes you got your money in ahead, but why call his allin.  from your post it seems that CL and short stack were playing quite passively (not raising preflop and checking down to river)  I don"t have a problem with your raise, but when he then pushes why call and put yourself in jepardy?  AJ was about the best you could hope he had, and almost anything else he"s push with here is stronger and a favourite against your AQo, fold and keep aggressing to take down pots where he isn"t allin.

Just my two penth worth.

[CrizzyConnor]

Firstly well done on your cash.  But one point I feel needs making your final hand, why tangle with the CL with AQo, yes you got your money in ahead, but why call his allin.  from your post it seems that CL and short stack were playing quite passively (not raising preflop and checking down to river)  I don"t have a problem with your raise, but when he then pushes why call and put yourself in jepardy?  AJ was about the best you could hope he had, and almost anything else he"s push with here is stronger and a favourite against your AQo, fold and keep aggressing to take down pots where he isn"t allin.

Just my two penth worth.

Really good point and I thought so myself but in my head at the time for some reason I thought to myself "we"re three handed so I"ve gotta have the best hand" --- don"t ask why because I dont know but I somehow convinced myself I did have the best hand... Turned out I did but ah well.

[hi_am_chris]

dunno if i could fold aqs 3 handed

[WarBwastardo]

I don"t think he"s suggesting just folding three handed, he"s saying perhaps folding after the all-in re-raise from the chip leader was the move considering he was putting his tournament on the line and the third player not in the hand was a short stack.