JJ in late position

[pokerpops]

disclaimer - my 3bet range may occasionally include hands other than those listed above

Really?? based on last night.. massive lies   x

I only went to showdown 6 or 7 times all night Phil

2nd btw - lost to Sammy or whatever his name is (based on last night it should be ****ing luckbox)

[PHIL_TC]

disclaimer - my 3bet range may occasionally include hands other than those listed above

Really?? based on last night.. massive lies   x

I only went to showdown 6 or 7 times all night Phil

2nd btw - lost to Sammy or whatever his name is (based on last night it should be ****ing luckbox)

WP mate, nice bink... pays for the flights to Vegas. Then press repeat over there and you can fly back. If you don"t then you"re stuck over there. Winner winner   x

[pokerpops]

disclaimer - my 3bet range may occasionally include hands other than those listed above

Really?? based on last night.. massive lies   x

I only went to showdown 6 or 7 times all night Phil

2nd btw - lost to Sammy or whatever his name is (based on last night it should be ****ing luckbox)

WP mate, nice bink... pays for the flights to Vegas. Then press repeat over there and you can fly back. If you don"t then you"re stuck over there. Winner winner   x

ohhhh I wish!

[TheSnapper]

Readless, that is, without the HEM stats I raise here 100% pre and c-bet the flop when checked to (if he calls pre)

as it was, all I could do was smile and make a note.

but I wish I"d known then what I now know  

You are missing lots If thats the extent of what you"ve learnt from the process.

Lets assume his utg opening range is.......

77+,AJs+,76s,AQo+.

With what hands will villain continue when you 3 bet?

You seem to be putting much emphasis on the fact that 67s was in his range but it really doesnt change your options at all. Especially so since I strongly suspect he will open fold that hand utg 80%-95% of the time anyway.

Had you 3 bet here villain would surely fold his weak hand and you would have won ~4 bb"s. This is good for villain hence bad for you.

[pokerpops]

If I give him the range you ascribe without adding in the suited connectors I"m 55/45
if I add in suited connectors it gets even better for me but I have no idea which end of the range he"s raising with if I flat

If I raise and he folds the bottom half of his range ie calls with TT+ and AQs+ the position reverses but now I have a better idea of what to do as the hand plays out

Raising gives me a chance of winning the pot preflop. I have no problem with the thought that he folds a lot of hands to the 3bet, nor do I have issues with playing JJ in position post flop if he flats the raise.

I lose chips when I fold, win them when he folds, and if we calls and we see the flop I have better information on which to base my play.


My reason for posting this was mostly the issue of "knowing your opponent" - his stats were all I had and it played out as it did. With zero information on his UTG opening range I can"t imagine that flatting JJ is ever a good strategy.

[George2Loose]

What about when he 4 bets?

[pokerpops]

What about when he 4 bets?

In the hand I posted (ie situation/stacks etc but readless)?  Fold, I still have a very playable stack.

Other stack sizes? Flatting the 4bet might be an option if I can hit or fold to a bet postflop?

I"m learning here - what"s your view George?

[George2Loose]

What about when he 4 bets?

In the hand I posted (ie situation/stacks etc but readless)?  Fold, I still have a very playable stack.

Other stack sizes? Flatting the 4bet might be an option if I can hit or fold to a bet postflop?

I"m learning here - what"s your view George?

Think you played it fine.

Let me ask you a question. If he had bet river and you called and he had 65 instead of 76 would there still be a thread about this?

Sometimes we take lines and we end up getting outdrawn. And it"s frustrating. We all do it. "Should have shoved the turn...." "Should have folded pre...." Anything to save those precious chips which aren"t ours anymore. Doesn"t mean we didn"t take the best line.

I"m probably with the bet turn camp for value but similarly I don"t mind checking turn to try and get him to bluff river. So all in all WP and UL.

[pokerpops]

Let me ask you a question. If he had bet river and you called and he had 65 instead of 76 would there still be a thread about this?

I know what you"re saying here and I understand but in this instance yes I would have posted. I"ve been using HEM for a while now and although I"m not sophisticated in it"s use I do use the HUD figures to guage my response to raises, and the fold to 3bet etc
I used the info here and it felt like I"d been duped by it.

The rest of the discussion about how we play JJ to an UTG raise has been interesting though, and helpful, thanks to all.
I"m particularly proud of

Think you played it fine.

So all in all WP and UL.

[TheSnapper]

If I give him the range you ascribe without adding in the suited connectors I"m 55/45
if I add in suited connectors it gets even better for me but I have no idea which end of the range he"s raising with if I flat

I lose chips when I fold, win them when he folds, and if we calls and we see the flop I have better information on which to base my play.

So are you.......

• Raising for value


• Raising for information


• Bluffing

If I raise and he folds the bottom half of his range ie calls with TT+ and AQs+ the position reverses but now I have a better idea of what to do as the hand plays out

You seem to have assumed that he folds the bottom half of his range and flats the other half. Thats not how it plays out though.

Villain opens with 77+,AJs+,76s,AQo+ = 96 combos

So we 3 bet and.....

• villain folds TT-77,76s,AJs = 32 combos and he"ll do this 33% .Is that a good result for us?



• Villain 4 bets JJ+,AKs,AKo = 44 combos and he"ll do this 44%. We will fold and relinquish our 37% equity



• Villain likely doesn"t flat much at all, maybe AQs,AQo = 20 combos flatting 21%  

Now villain may well flat with AKo or even some of 77-JJ or some other variation depending on his own personal tendencies, current mood or perception of your 3 bet range but those villain specific variations will be small and won"t change the numbers much.

My reason for posting this was mostly the issue of "knowing your opponent" - his stats were all I had and it played out as it did. With zero information on his UTG opening range I can"t imagine that flatting JJ is ever a good strategy.

With 63 hands on the villain showing a nitty 10/5 it seems prudent to assign a really tight utg raising range. Our set-mine value goes up against this range because villain is more likely to have a genuine hand that he can stack off with when we hit our set.

As far as using your HUD, it is a must to have access to position specific stats. When I hover on the pfr stat I get a pop up that shows pfr by position.

Looks like this......



right click / view image, for clearer view

[noble1]

hmmm ok i was gonna leave this alone as soon as i saw HEM stats  
right 63 hands is not a large sample as i"m sure u know David, about the only info i"d take from it is the gap between the vpip and the pfr..
so a general basic loose read i"d take from that sample is that villain is tight passive [possibly]
loosely giving him a range i"d give a 10% vpip (approx) a range which could be made up of Pairs, BWs and SC (11.3%), or u could assign the upper half of Pairs, BW and SC (99+/AJ+/KJ+/T9s-76s) for approx 10% or other combinations..

as a basic guide i would assign and break down a std range like this below -
Pairs - 5.88%
Axs - 3.62%
BWs - 3.01%
SC- 2.41%
SC1 Gap - 2.11%
Axo - 10.9%
BWo - 9.04%
UnSC - 7.24%

as u get experienced using the HUD stats and playing different player types u can narrow and expand each category.. edit - eg - SC2 Gap - 2.4% , Kxs - 2.4% etc etc....
a little bit of analysis and pokerstove are required to get better and fine tune how u narrow player ranges, as a rule of thumb use the 13x rule to assign hand combinations to the vpip"s - so a 10% range will have approx 10x13 combinations = 130 , 20% will have 20x13 = 260 combi"s etc etc ... this will help u break down post flop situations where u can work out how much of villains range will connect with the board texture...

hopefully u"ll find the above helpful and it will give u some ideas, u still have to know how to use the info though to best exploit it, obv the player position and how the table dynamic at the time needs to be taken into account etc etc so u need to play a lot and hopefully bits and pieces will drop into place....

imho learning the concepts and theory in poker is far more important than using a HUD, but if this is the way u wanna go then make sure u learn to exploit whatever stat u pick up on [and be bloody good at it ]

[noble1]

general titbits -

u can learn various things from this, the stat 10/5 suggested tight passive, he was checking to u even though he had the initiative on the flop and then again on the turn... u had position and never reacted to it, bet fold versus these types is a gr8 line dont u think?
what else can u take from it? he didn"t cbet his air, why? will he do this a lot? can u exploit this? what sort of level of thinking would u put him on, level1 level2 etc etc, look at his river bet, what was going through his mind? what was he putting u on to hope u paid him off? how did he perceive your range? was he even thinking about it or his own?
always try to get an idea of your opponents level of thought, then just adjust 1 level up....

as for 3bets, there are many a way to play, your own style, the opponent style of play, how they perceive u and a multitude of other things need to be taken into account...
me in general will default to 3betting, thats me and my basic style, why? because at these sort of stack sizes players mis use implied odds imho, thats my personal view.. i prefer to 3bet because it will make decisions as simple as possible for me and as hard as possible for my opponents whilst retaining large amounts of implied odds and fold equity for myself.. but i base this default strategy on my style of play...
its alright to flat call to, but are u doing it to only set mine? how often is the villain cbetting, what are u going to do on a AXX flop and he cbets? does he even stack off light? how often does he double barrel? etc...
is he the type who will only give action when he has 2pair or better? if so is flatting JJ such a gr8 idea now? say he perceives u tight and u 3bet, he has QQ and chooses to flat, the flop comes down AXX he checks, who is most likely to win the pot now? who is making the mistake? u both have AK, he opens u 3bet he calls, flop is 289 - who is most likely to win the pot?
there are many more variables, but its far to simplistic and general to say never 3bet XX , be flexible.... in general if your hand is above your oppo"s top 1/2 of there opening range from whatever position, then i"d argue u will profit more by 3betting....

meh far to variables and ifs and buts meh poker lol its about feeling how your opponent is playing, and figuring out whats the best way to play against it... don"t u think? the next level of this is very simple... people begin to figure out what you are doing and adjust... well some do depends what level and stake u are playing....

[pokerpops]

The truth about poker?

meh far to variables and ifs and buts meh poker lol its about feeling how your opponent is playing, and figuring out whats the best way to play against it... don"t u think? the next level of this is very simple... people begin to figure out what you are doing and adjust... well some do depends what level and stake u are playing....

so many posts half-written and deleted that I think I need to have a lay down and leave this for a while.

I"ve learnt from the thread and I"m happy that, in the exact same circumstances doing exactly the same is fine, I"m also happy to say that if Bluen0se raises utg and I have TT+ in late position it is more than likely that I"ll raise