Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Des on December 20, 2011, 11:50:58 AM
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Hi all,
APAT will trial a new concept on day 2 of the European Amateur Championship in Brighton. If successful, we may launch the concept in a bigger way in 2012. We would appreciate your feedback on the concept and on the test event itself, for those who take part.
The concept is a five table (50 runner) Cash Tournament, decided over two 3 hour phases.
- Players can buy in for £50 + a £10 Grinder payment
- Phase 1 of the event will see the players playing 25p / 50p cash between 3pm and 6pm.
- Players can exit the game at any point, but in doing so they forfeit their Grinder payment.
- Players can rebuy into the game once during Phase 1.
- Tables will be kept balanced.
At the end of the three hours, the ten players with the most cash will qualify through to Phase 2.*
- With increased stacks in play, the antes will be raised to 50p / £1 for Phase 2.
- Phase 2 will run between 6.30pm and 9.30pm.
- The player with the most cash in front of them at 9.30pm will win the Grinder pot, of approximately £500.
- Players will be charged a one off 10% entry fee for participating. Half of the entry fee will be netted off of APAT's invoice from the venue.*
We think the format will be unique, dramatic and a lot of fun and would appreciate your support in testing it in Brighton.
If you have any questions, thoughts or suggestions....fire away.
Cheers,
Des.
* Updated January 3rd.
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Sounds awesome - just disappointed that I can"t be in Brighton.... hope it takes off for future APAT weekends!
One question re.....
- APAT will charge a 5% entry fee.
Does this signify a change of approach for APAT regarding fees, or is this a one off for a particular reason?
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Does this replace the PLO event on the Sunday in Brighton?
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Sounds awesome - just disappointed that I can"t be in Brighton.... hope it takes off for future APAT weekends!
One question re.....
- APAT will charge a 5% entry fee.
Does this signify a change of approach for APAT regarding fees, or is this a one off for a particular reason?
As a test Brighton should be seen as a one off. If successful APAT may launch a second tour; which may be targeted at a higher buy in, which would charge a fee and be revenue generating. It"s all very much in the melting pot, but as a fee would be attached to any potential roll out, it seems sensible to add it to the trial also.
We have no plans whatsoever to start charging fees for APAT events.
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Does this replace the PLO event on the Sunday in Brighton?
We"ve stated that we may trial an event on the Sunday Mark, this would be it. So yes, a PLO wouldn"t run also.
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Thanks, looks like a very interesting concept, looking forward to seeing how it pans out.
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- The games will be raked at 5% as per standard cash, up to a maximum of £9 per pot.
- APAT will charge a 5% entry fee.
Cheers,
Des.
Entry fee AND rake?
Interesting concept, a big plus to the cash players out there. Has anyone warned the dealers they probably wont be tipped during this cash session ;)
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Is the entry fee 5% of £10 or 5% of £60?
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like the looks of this!!! shame i wont be able to play as i will be in day 2 :p
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- Players can rebuy into the game once during Phase 1.
Is the Apat 5% fee applied to rebuys
- Tables will be kept balanced.
A move could prove to be either very beneficial or critical for a player, for example, a player is chipleader at table A and is moved to table B (potentially with few hands remaining before cut for phase 2) where his stack is dwarfed by two or more players at this super soft table. See next point for more on this.
-At the end of the three hours, the two players with the most cash on each table will qualify through to Phase 2.
Why not just top 10 chip counts over the 5 tables? Would it be really unfair to be eliminated ahead of a shorter stack who happened to place 1st or 2nd at a table where both players had marginally improved their stacks?
Also, is the game no limit and would a straddle be allowed?
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So it"s a timed cash game with a £10 side bet + entry fee + rake?
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- Tables will be kept balanced.
A move could prove to be either very beneficial or critical for a player, for example, a player is chipleader at table A and is moved to table B (potentially with few hands remaining before cut for phase 2) where his stack is dwarfed by two or more players at this super soft table. See next point for more on this.
-At the end of the three hours, the two players with the most cash on each table will qualify through to Phase 2.
Why not just top 10 chip counts over the 5 tables? Would it be really unfair to be eliminated ahead of a shorter stack who happened to place 1st or 2nd at a table where both players had marginally improved their stacks?
I think Brendan has a point. If arbitrary or "next BB" movements apply, the concept of the top two qualifying could be blown up by a big stack moving. What if a few players got tired of being run over and left at the same time from one table and the other two biggest stacks got moved to that table? Maybe table-balancing could be achieved by moving the smallest stack.
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Hi all,
- Players can exit the game at any point, but in doing so they forfeit their Grinder payment.
If a player leaves the game, can a new player join? ie an alternate
Agree with the top 10 going through irrespective of which table they are on.
Would be an interesting last few hands as there could be some multi all ins to tray and get to phase 2 and similar at the end of phase 2
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Is the entry fee 5% of £10 or 5% of £60?
It would be a one of 5% of the initial buy in. So £2.50.
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- Players can rebuy into the game once during Phase 1.
Is the Apat 5% fee applied to rebuys
- Tables will be kept balanced.
A move could prove to be either very beneficial or critical for a player, for example, a player is chipleader at table A and is moved to table B (potentially with few hands remaining before cut for phase 2) where his stack is dwarfed by two or more players at this super soft table. See next point for more on this.
-At the end of the three hours, the two players with the most cash on each table will qualify through to Phase 2.
Why not just top 10 chip counts over the 5 tables? Would it be really unfair to be eliminated ahead of a shorter stack who happened to place 1st or 2nd at a table where both players had marginally improved their stacks?
Also, is the game no limit and would a straddle be allowed?
Our decision, so the game could be wholly NL, or it could be PL pre flop and NL thereafter. What do players think?
Yes, we would allow a straddle.
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- Players can rebuy into the game once during Phase 1.
Is the Apat 5% fee applied to rebuys
DD: No, don"t envisage that.
- Tables will be kept balanced.
A move could prove to be either very beneficial or critical for a player, for example, a player is chipleader at table A and is moved to table B (potentially with few hands remaining before cut for phase 2) where his stack is dwarfed by two or more players at this super soft table. See next point for more on this.
-At the end of the three hours, the two players with the most cash on each table will qualify through to Phase 2.
Why not just top 10 chip counts over the 5 tables? Would it be really unfair to be eliminated ahead of a shorter stack who happened to place 1st or 2nd at a table where both players had marginally improved their stacks?
DD: Agreed. A further option would be to play the Phase 1 tables in shootout style. Again, what do you guys think? The beauty of a trial is we can discuss upfront and test any format.
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- Tables will be kept balanced.
A move could prove to be either very beneficial or critical for a player, for example, a player is chipleader at table A and is moved to table B (potentially with few hands remaining before cut for phase 2) where his stack is dwarfed by two or more players at this super soft table. See next point for more on this.
-At the end of the three hours, the two players with the most cash on each table will qualify through to Phase 2.
Why not just top 10 chip counts over the 5 tables? Would it be really unfair to be eliminated ahead of a shorter stack who happened to place 1st or 2nd at a table where both players had marginally improved their stacks?
I think Brendan has a point. If arbitrary or "next BB" movements apply, the concept of the top two qualifying could be blown up by a big stack moving. What if a few players got tired of being run over and left at the same time from one table and the other two biggest stacks got moved to that table? Maybe table-balancing could be achieved by moving the smallest stack.
We"ll take feedback before making a final call on this. Ultimately we wouldn"t want to go with a concept that didn"t work.
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Hi all,
- Players can exit the game at any point, but in doing so they forfeit their Grinder payment.
If a player leaves the game, can a new player join? ie an alternate
Agree with the top 10 going through irrespective of which table they are on.
Would be an interesting last few hands as there could be some multi all ins to tray and get to phase 2 and similar at the end of phase 2
Yes, a new player could join at any point during Phase 1.
Top 10 - to be discussed.
Agreed, a player who has made a decent profit in the first phase may choose to stand and take his winnings rather than get involved in the final half hour of what could be mayhem. The dynamics will be interesting for sure.
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Will there be a buffet?
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I"m surprised at the £9 max for the rake. In Vegas you can sit down at a $1/$2 table with $300 and the rake will be the same 5%, but with a maximum of $5. Basically nearly every significant pot had a $5 rake.
I think a £5 max would be fairer, so any pot over £100 would have the same rake. I shouldn"t think there would be that many pots over £100 (perhaps towards the end - see above), so perhaps it wouldn"t make much difference. I can"t do the Maths off the top of my head, but how much of the total money on all tables will end up in the Dealers" trays? It was always disconcerting in Vegas, during a long cash session, how often the Dealer needed change for his/her tray. The stacks of $1 chips that appeared was essentially the rake for the last hour or so.
I agree with the points made above about table balancing (moving the smallest stake makes sense) and taking the top 10 stacks. Imagine being the 3rd highest stack, but the only two bigger stacks are on your table - gutted!
Sounds great. I"m almost looking forward to going out on Day 1!
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Not going to Brighton but if I was I"d defo give it a go.
I reckon the rake taken at 9% in a 6 hour sesh would be around the £600 Mark if the pots are ave about £20 and 20-25 hands/hour
GL with this
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Great idea - allow (a few) more re-buys??
Only starting 100BB"s deep.
I would drop the Grinder"s payment - you may create some odd incentives for the final table - if someone has built a mega stack by say 8.30pm they could dwell/fold their way to the £500.
Why not have 50 runners from start to finish - top profit wins a trophy?
Why kick out 40 runners after three hours?
L
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It"s always nice to see some innovation and I have no problem with a trial.
It"s not something I can see myself playing and for that reason I find it a shame that, if successful, this will replace the Side Events.
Yes, I know that, apart from DTD, they"ve nearly all been PLO but at least something other than NLHE is being offered. How are we to promote the spreading of other poker variants if we dump the side events in favour of what is, in effect, already being offered by the casino...to wit...a HE cash game?
The Side Events were a reason for me, and many others, to hang around on Sunday after, as usual, bombing out of the Main Event thus making the trip a little more value for money. It would be a BIG shame to see them go.
Notwithstanding that I won"t be partaking, I do find the idea of rake being taken in what is essentially a tournament somewhat disturbing. This looks like a definite money maker (ahem) for the Casino but -EV for the players.
I"m also disturbed by APAT charging a fee.
I"m assuming since APAT are taking the fee that this is not a mis-named casino fee (they"re already getting a GENEROUS rake FFS). If this is an APAT event it should be reg free....it"s the APAT ethos.
If it is a casino fee I think it would be more appropriate to increase this to a more standard % and cut the rake.
Like I said, I won"t be playing in this...I"ll be trying to get Side Event SNG"s off the ground...or at the bar. ;D
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Real shame, always enjoyed the usual side events and was looking forward to the same at brighton :(
Will play this anyway I guess even though it doesn"t sound very good compared to the normal sides.
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I keep typing responses to this and reading them and thinking I sound so negative and like I am complaining. Well I have been pretty negative recently so maybe it"s the new me *lol*
I just don"t see the point in this. If you want a cash game, have a cash game. If you want a side bet on it so we have a winner then that"s cool as well. This whole concept just feels wrong though.
Firstly what if I lose half my stack, I will want to top up, does this count as my 1 rebuy? I actually tend to top up quite soon after going below starting stack, it"s +EV.
Secondly let"s say I think my edge over the field is 10BB/100 (I believe it to be less than that), but if it is then as we are only playing 100 hands (approx - most likely less) if we play our "normal" cash game we expect to lose to the grinder bet and reg fee. There is the chance to win the grinder bet of course but in reality people who gamble to try and get into the top 10 are going to push the people playing good solid poker out. There is an argument that this will create some +EV situations that would not otherwise exist.
The grinder bet is too large and brings in all sort of strange dynamics to the final table which do not really encourage good cash game play. For example I have to call a bet against the odds with a flush draw as there is another £500 on top of it and I cannot bet the flush draw off. Basic cash "rules" stop applying.
imo - have randomly drawn tables and just play a cash game for the full 7 hours or whatever it is with full cash game rules. Keep the blinds at 25p/50p and make the min buyin £50 and the max £100. Have a £5 grinder bet for the player who makes the most profit, maybe have a first and second prize, basically make this grinder bet worth a whole lot less, it should be a bonus not the most important thing. This might be a bit idealistic as I do not know how hard this would be to ploice with rebuys and top-ups and everything else.
Like I said don"t mean to come across as super negative and the game run as a trial sounds like fun, but as a tour I just don"t see it working too well.
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Its a very interesting idea Des. Here are my thoughts:
The rake/ fee and Jackpot (Grinder payment) combo make it a very expensive game to play and long term - ev for the players. I would suggest a jackpot drop from each pot over say £20 to add to the Grinder pool for the prize. The rake seems fine but I dunno about the fee aswell.
The idea of balancing tables is fine, surely they would self balance anyway as the big stacks will want to go where the money is? The Jackpot is, after all a bonus, the main idea is to make money.
The time limit is about right.
I"m not too worried about the 100bb start. Its deep enough and replicates online.
Are we allowed to do deals for the jackpot?
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It"s always nice to see some innovation and I have no problem with a trial.
It"s not something I can see myself playing and for that reason I find it a shame that, if successful, this will replace the Side Events.
Yes, I know that, apart from DTD, they"ve nearly all been PLO but at least something other than NLHE is being offered. How are we to promote the spreading of other poker variants if we dump the side events in favour of what is, in effect, already being offered by the casino...to wit...a HE cash game?
The Side Events were a reason for me, and many others, to hang around on Sunday after, as usual, bombing out of the Main Event thus making the trip a little more value for money. It would be a BIG shame to see them go.
Notwithstanding that I won"t be partaking, I do find the idea of rake being taken in what is essentially a tournament somewhat disturbing. This looks like a definite money maker (ahem) for the Casino but -EV for the players.
I"m also disturbed by APAT charging a fee.
I"m assuming since APAT are taking the fee that this is not a mis-named casino fee (they"re already getting a GENEROUS rake FFS). If this is an APAT event it should be reg free....it"s the APAT ethos.
If it is a casino fee I think it would be more appropriate to increase this to a more standard % and cut the rake.
Like I said, I won"t be playing in this...I"ll be trying to get Side Event SNG"s off the ground...or at the bar. ;D
I agree totally with Paulie.
The extra side event is what makes APAT events what they are; you bust the main you can have a laugh and play the side. Most will agree with me that they are traveling to APAT events to play TOURNAMENTS and NOT CASH games.
If I wanted to play some cash I would stay at home.
Its a shame there is not going to be a side event at Brighton; I hope this will not be the case for any future events.
Lukas
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Its a very interesting idea Des. Here are my thoughts:
The rake/ fee and Jackpot (Grinder payment) combo make it a very expensive game to play and long term - ev for the players. I would suggest a jackpot drop from each pot over say £20 to add to the Grinder pool for the prize. The rake seems fine but I dunno about the fee aswell.
The idea of balancing tables is fine, surely they would self balance anyway as the big stacks will want to go where the money is? The Jackpot is, after all a bonus, the main idea is to make money.
The time limit is about right.
I"m not too worried about the 100bb start. Its deep enough and replicates online.
Are we allowed to do deals for the jackpot?
This is a very good idea, makes the game less auto -EV
Deals on the jackpot could certainly work (and should be allowed as we are paying a reg fee and there is no added value). I still like prizes for more than one player and a straight game rather than moving the top 10 stacks to one table and moving the blinds up.
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I have spoken to the Rendezvous card room and they inform me that they are still running their own tourney on the Sunday which is
£45 Super Turbo Freezeout
£6 reg
20,000 chips1
15 minute blinds
£1500 guaranteed with 15 players from the start
If you wanna steer clear of cash like me ;D
oh and are you coming now Rodders :)
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the more I think about this, and having read all the feedback so far..... this doesn"t feel like a cash game at all - it would appear to be just a tournament by another name, with most of the usual tournament dynamics, but far more heavily taxed than any tournament I ever play in. The grinder pot would make such a huge influence that it turns the "final table" into a winner takes all STT.
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The extra side event is what makes APAT events what they are; you bust the main you can have a laugh and play the side. Most will agree with me that they are traveling to APAT events to play TOURNAMENTS and NOT CASH games.
If I wanted to play some cash I would stay at home.
Its a shame there is not going to be a side event at Brighton; I hope this will not be the case for any future events.
Lukas
The side events have only been going two years, so I would suggest that most people travel to APAT events for the one tournament. All other poker is a bonus. remember there is more to poker than tournies.
This Idea of Des seems a good way for tourny players to dip their toes in the waters of cash games without being bitten by too many sharks, and should be applauded imo.
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I"m not knocking the idea, I would however knock my ability to play cash rationally :-[
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Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone, which is excellent.
Two things.
1) Don"t worry about anything you say being perceived as negative. Ultimately this is a trial and highlighting issues is no bad thing right now. This format will not be for everyone, I"ll be the first to acknowledge that.
2) If the trial works; and one way or another I"m sure we"ll learn something from it, it is likely that we would promote the idea to higher end cash players with the objective of creating a destination series for them. In that scenario I don"t see any reason why we would not retain the APAT side event also. A busy casino on a Sunday is a win win for all.
Please remember, we"re in the business of trying to improve things for our players, not reduce your enjoyment. It"s a tough market and we appreciate your loyalty and custom. But we also have a record of innovation and a lot of the tours that exist in the UK today are as a result of APAT's innovation back in 2006. We are not owned by an online poker operator so cannot offer the large guarantees (we wouldn"t want to extend beyond two day events anyway), but we do enjoy being the first to identify and introduce a format; as we did with team games for example.
So right now, we"re planning to have some fun with this one and we"d like you guys to be excited about it to. It may only be a one off for you at these buy in levels, or indeed it might be canned after Brighton. Let"s give it a shot.
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I"m surprised at the £9 max for the rake. In Vegas you can sit down at a $1/$2 table with $300 and the rake will be the same 5%, but with a maximum of $5. Basically nearly every significant pot had a $5 rake.
I think a £5 max would be fairer, so any pot over £100 would have the same rake. I shouldn"t think there would be that many pots over £100 (perhaps towards the end - see above), so perhaps it wouldn"t make much difference. I can"t do the Maths off the top of my head, but how much of the total money on all tables will end up in the Dealers" trays? It was always disconcerting in Vegas, during a long cash session, how often the Dealer needed change for his/her tray. The stacks of $1 chips that appeared was essentially the rake for the last hour or so.
I agree with the points made above about table balancing (moving the smallest stake makes sense) and taking the top 10 stacks. Imagine being the 3rd highest stack, but the only two bigger stacks are on your table - gutted!
Sounds great. I"m almost looking forward to going out on Day 1!
We would be using the casino"s standard rake structure, which Tighty has confirmed at 5% / max £9 per pot.
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Not going to Brighton but if I was I"d defo give it a go.
I reckon the rake taken at 9% in a 6 hour sesh would be around the £600 Mark if the pots are ave about £20 and 20-25 hands/hour
GL with this
Thanks Iain.
5%!
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Great idea - allow (a few) more re-buys??
Only starting 100BB"s deep.
I would drop the Grinder"s payment - you may create some odd incentives for the final table - if someone has built a mega stack by say 8.30pm they could dwell/fold their way to the £500.
Why not have 50 runners from start to finish - top profit wins a trophy?
Why kick out 40 runners after three hours?
L
Some of the elements that we"re proposing are to create a tournament dynamic of sorts; but with players playing with their own cash. I think it introduces a lot of unknown variables (greed, panic etc) and I could see the final"s being streamed live for their drama.
That said we have four week prior to doling out the cash chips. Plenty of time to add or amend the format depending what is suggested in this thread.
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It"s always nice to see some innovation and I have no problem with a trial.
It"s not something I can see myself playing and for that reason I find it a shame that, if successful, this will replace the Side Events.
Yes, I know that, apart from DTD, they"ve nearly all been PLO but at least something other than NLHE is being offered. How are we to promote the spreading of other poker variants if we dump the side events in favour of what is, in effect, already being offered by the casino...to wit...a HE cash game?
The Side Events were a reason for me, and many others, to hang around on Sunday after, as usual, bombing out of the Main Event thus making the trip a little more value for money. It would be a BIG shame to see them go.
Notwithstanding that I won"t be partaking, I do find the idea of rake being taken in what is essentially a tournament somewhat disturbing. This looks like a definite money maker (ahem) for the Casino but -EV for the players.
I"m also disturbed by APAT charging a fee.
I"m assuming since APAT are taking the fee that this is not a mis-named casino fee (they"re already getting a GENEROUS rake FFS). If this is an APAT event it should be reg free....it"s the APAT ethos.
If it is a casino fee I think it would be more appropriate to increase this to a more standard % and cut the rake.
Like I said, I won"t be playing in this...I"ll be trying to get Side Event SNG"s off the ground...or at the bar. ;D
Agreed on side events and I"ve commented elsewhere that I find it unlikely that this will replace those games.
The APAT fee is solely as titled. as a five year old "business" in a tightening market, it makes sense that we assert some control in managing our income. The Cash Tour if it happens, will not be heavily APAT branded, and will work to a different financial model. Remember this concept won"t exist online, so is unlikely to generate sponsorship in the same way that the APAT tour does.
Remember also; and I haven"t seen anyone suggest this yet, there is no reason why the Cash Tour could not be positioned as dealer"s choice.
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Will there be a buffet?
I"ve stayed out of that negotiation in favour of Tighty. :)
In all seriousness, probably not.
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I have spoken to the Rendezvous card room and they inform me that they are still running their own tourney on the Sunday which is
£45 Super Turbo Freezeout
£6 reg
20,000 chips1
15 minute blinds
£1500 guaranteed with 15 players from the start
If you wanna steer clear of cash like me ;D
Not exactly the same as a side event IMO...more frikkin HE.
Unless I"m Day Twoing...I"ll be heading home...shame really.
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Its a very interesting idea Des. Here are my thoughts:
The rake/ fee and Jackpot (Grinder payment) combo make it a very expensive game to play and long term - ev for the players. I would suggest a jackpot drop from each pot over say £20 to add to the Grinder pool for the prize. The rake seems fine but I dunno about the fee aswell.
The idea of balancing tables is fine, surely they would self balance anyway as the big stacks will want to go where the money is? The Jackpot is, after all a bonus, the main idea is to make money.
The time limit is about right.
I"m not too worried about the 100bb start. Its deep enough and replicates online.
Are we allowed to do deals for the jackpot?
Thanks Del and good idea with regards the Grinder drop. The only point that I would make on that is that we want players to be "invested" in the idea of being the last person standing / biggest cash winner. That"s the unknown dynamic in this game. Perhaps it will become a crazy gambling game at certain points and some will stand and walk away with their stack, perhaps not. I think I"d like to see the Grinder element retained for the trial to see what happens, but your idea certainly has merits.
With regards deals, I think it would be better for the game if the Grinder payment was a unique final prize. As someone said above, it"s a £20 last longer effectively.
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the more I think about this, and having read all the feedback so far..... this doesn"t feel like a cash game at all - it would appear to be just a tournament by another name, with most of the usual tournament dynamics, but far more heavily taxed than any tournament I ever play in. The grinder pot would make such a huge influence that it turns the "final table" into a winner takes all STT.
I wouldn"t perceive it like that Steve. You will be playing with cash chips on a non increasing blind structure for three hours. Your investment into the Grinder pot would be £10 and if for example you were £70 up on your initial buy in there would be nothing to stop you standing at that point and walking away with your cash. It"s a slightly different concept with elements of both tournaments and cash.
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Without wanting to bang the same drum again - lets not lose the side events.
I plan my APAT events as weekends now, booking days off work either side as I am sure that many do. I have done this for Brighton but will now likely be heading home after the main event. I come to APAT events to play well structured tourneys hence the Super turbo freezeout offered by the casino is not my cup of tea. I am sure the concept of it will be liked by some. I have had a good think about it but cant really work out its appeal.
I like an innovative APAT but I am really disappointed side event wont be held at Brighton. Will have to find fish at the aquarium instead.
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2) If the trial works; and one way or another I"m sure we"ll learn something from it, it is likely that we would promote the idea to higher end cash players with the objective of creating a destination series for them. In that scenario I don"t see any reason why we would not retain the APAT side event also. A busy casino on a Sunday is a win win for all.
I suspect that within this target audience game/table selection skills are a considerable factor in their profitability. You take that edge away from them in the proposed format. It could be that the changing endgame dynamic may compensate, not sure how that would pan out to be honest.
How about mimicing "The Big Game" where as an added value prize we stake an Apat"er into a private cash game as "The Loose Cannon" and sell seats in the game to whomever ( ie: 5% of buy in). The cannon gets to keep profit and top performer over the series wins a seat, a trophy or
Not wanting to pour scorn over your idea Des, just thinking out loud ;)
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The more I think about it, the more I like it. It will be great fun! Please don"t let Brighton be a one off.
I really want to play a season of these at the levels stated in the OP
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I"m going to try not to be a negative about this.
FAIL
;D
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So the highest winners from the first round go into the second round, several of them then lose chips (maybe everything) and end up worse off than some of those knocked out in the first round.
What about banking a certain amount of the first round winnings?
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Seems rather complex - I"d still give it a go though.
My main feeling is that I think mimicking the Big Game or Loose Cannon would be preferable.
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Would the casino"s standard cash chips be used? Quite easy for someone dishonest to add a the odd pony to the stack when no one is looking.
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the more I think about this, and having read all the feedback so far..... this doesn"t feel like a cash game at all - it would appear to be just a tournament by another name, with most of the usual tournament dynamics, but far more heavily taxed than any tournament I ever play in. The grinder pot would make such a huge influence that it turns the "final table" into a winner takes all STT.
^^ this
In addition, this could turn out to be more expensive than the main event, which I find quite bizarre. For many players the Sunday is for a different side event, and/or playing the casino cash games. This is a cash/tourney fusion, which unlike other cash games could lead to you being busted out after 3 hours or less, with no chance to break even again or make profit. At the stakes being suggested and with a possible reload, I don"t believe there"s enough incentive for anyone other than the winner.
I do though, love the thinking outside the box 8)
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So the highest winners from the first round go into the second round, several of them then lose chips (maybe everything) and end up worse off than some of those knocked out in the first round.
What about banking a certain amount of the first round winnings?
No weeding aloud, they either quit with the lot or continue with the lot. besides the binds will be higher so you probably need bigger stacks.
Des, are you able to rebuy in Phase 2
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So the highest winners from the first round go into the second round, several of them then lose chips (maybe everything) and end up worse off than some of those knocked out in the first round.
What about banking a certain amount of the first round winnings?
No weeding aloud, they either quit with the lot or continue with the lot. besides the binds will be higher so you probably need bigger stacks.
Des, are you able to rebuy in Phase 2
If the stacks remained similar to the first round, then so would the blinds, obv.
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Personally I hate the concept. If I wanted to spend my sunday playing cashgames I could stay at home and grind it down my local where I"m not capped to a 100BB buyin, and where I know the game is profitable. Will the Casino not have cash games running simultaniously on the sunday anyway?
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Now this, re OP is a very interesting idea, may it prove popular and continue through 2012.
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I don"t like this idea at all. I also don"t like the idea of APAT ever being targetted at "higher end cash players". The first A in APAT stands for "Amateur". To me that means recreational. Take all APAT branding off it IMO.
Per the OP this is pretty pricey (for APAT) at potentially £112.50 + raked pots. The dynamic feels very "gambly".
I (well we) were priced out of Manchester by the increased buy-in at both ME and side event. The APAT direction is all pretty worrying.
I appreciate that new ideas are always good but alas we"ll be watching with interest from the sidelines. GL.
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As far as this forum goes I try to adopt the concept of "if you can"t say something nice then don"t say anything at all"... but I must depart from the norm here and say that I hate this as I suspect that it will only appeal to a minority of APATers.
I understand and applaud the notion of APAT constantly seeking to improve and raise the bar, but I think this is innovation for innovation"s sake. No offence intended, just my tuppence worth.
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I think its potentially very interesting as a concept, but not very appealing as it is set up at the minute.
-I think buy-in shud be 200x.
-I think many of the players this is targeted at would be more +EV playing the regular cash games with deeper stacks and more recreational players.
-I think that overall chip counts should be taken into account rather than table by table.
-I think set rules shud be put in place b4 anything kicks off regarding straddles, etc, as if not some tables will naturally play bigger than other.
-I think a large list of alts would need to be noted down so as player rotation would be kept to a minimum.
This all obv just came off the top of my mind, so havent really thot it thru in details - just general rambling obv :)
On a plus side, I love that APAT are pushing the boundaries in things like this. Many people are talking about this being unaffordable, but imo APAT are absolutely correct to run events like this, or occasional tournaments with higher buy-ins. The classic tournament set-up will still be there for the regs, but the new tournaments will bring a new player base to APAT which is always good.
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I remember a local live tourney that ran a shootout format in the early days (before many had a clue), but the shootout 1st rd was timed. It created a farcical situation where in the last hand everyone on the table had to go all-in, including the chipleader as he would be surpassed by the pot winner. The only way a chipleader could avoid the last hand mayem was to have more than half the chips on the table.
I can see this cash game idea going exactly the same way (whether it be top 2/table or top 10 overall), in fact i cant see it going any other way. The final table would be exactly the same as well, turning it into the biggest donkfest APAT has ever run.
As many have said, new ideas are great, but I have tried to think of a way that this could work effectively but just cant come to any idea to avoid the innevitable last hands mayem.
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I think it"s an interesting concept but not really sure if it will work or not. I appreciate the idea of trying something new.
The biggest negative for me personally is something Marty just touched on :
"I think many of the players this is targeted at would be more +EV playing the regular cash games with deeper stacks and more recreational players."
This was my first thought. When I play cash at APAT events I do so because they"re held at the weekend and the cash tables in the casinos are very soft. I"ve made a lot of money this season playing them and although I generally play the side events i"m not sure I would with this one simply because I play cash much more for making money than I do the side events. I make a point of avoiding the cash tables filled with APAT players, why play against decent players when you can find a table with a rich fish, a couple of chinese gamblers, a couple of drunk teenagers and Ger (ok, i don"t avoid all APAT players). ;)
Given the chance to win £200-£500 playing on one of these tables (sums i"ve taken at a few APATs this season) or playing a cash game against decent players with a possibility of winning £500 but only if I beat 49 or more of said players it"s hard to see the appeal of the latter.
But i"ll probably play anyway. :)
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I like the idea that APAT is being innovative (as per usual), but not sure that the format would attract cash players, or if the proposed format wouldn"t just end up a huge luckfest as Robbiebox pointed out.
With 100BBs, very soon a lot of players are going to be down to 70 or 80BBs - a horrible stack to play cash with. Will these players be allowed to reload their additional one-stack in chunks, or will they have to do it in one go?
The nature of cash is to play "correctly" on each hand, and if there"s a 50/50 spot it"s normally a good spot to get all your money in as the additional money in the pot will give you good odds to do so. But in this proposed "cash tournament" it"s encouraging people to play differently and this takes away from the idea of it being a cash game. It"s just a tournament with one re-buy and without the blinds increasing. So the victors are going to be the ones who win the most coolers in most probability.
Love the idea of some sort of APAT cash game - but not sure this is the best solution.
A possible idea is to have a .25/.50 or .5/1 cash game where players clock in and out and those with the best hourly rate have done the best (with possibly a "bonus" added to their rate the more time they put in, this will help prevent someone doubling up in the first few minutes and then leaving the table from having the best rate). There"s be a max buy-in, but players can reload at any time (the amount they reload will need to be recorded).
This would work more like a standard cash game, although there"ll be some time-constraints on the players, but that"s inevitable.
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Just get a tv table cash game gng at wcoap of APAT players and stream it online imo. Award the person with most profit at the end a token trophy/medal/gold-star.
#nameinhat
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Just get a tv table cash game gng at wcoap of APAT players and stream it online imo. Award the person with most profit at the end a token trophy/medal/gold-star.
#nameinhat
Has to be dealers choice if that"s the case.
Be worth it just to see Tighty trying to commentate on 6 card Omaha Hi-Lo Triple Flop when there are 5 different pots as everyone is all in and there are various splits. :)
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shp
ouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton.
no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
-
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
-
Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
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Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
Oh, I acknowledge that..my point still holds though...booking on the assumption that something you LIKE was going to happen was, and I know that it"s harsh, a little rash.
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
In!
Make it run constantly over the course of the week, It would make it probably the truest test of skill we have had yet....
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Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
Oh, I acknowledge that..my point still holds though...booking on the assumption that something you LIKE was going to happen was, and I know that it"s harsh, a little rash.
Yeah i agree, was highlighting mainly for Jayteejack :)
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
sounds like an angle shoot to me stu.............i based my comments on a conversation between myself, des, cularge, minttrav and a few others in manchester after we were infomed only on saturday evening that the omaha had been cancelled even though we had been lead to believe different. deja-vu
-
been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
sounds like an angle shoot to me stu.............i based my comments on a conversation between myself, des, cularge, minttrav and a few others in manchester after we were infomed only on saturday evening that the omaha had been cancelled even though we had been lead to believe different. deja-vu
Ok, i am going to beat a tactical withdraw from this one :D i have no opinions either way :D
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To be fair it will be intersting to see the outcome of this venture, but I intend to be struggling to stand up as usual. See you all there :)
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
sounds like an angle shoot to me stu.............i based my comments on a conversation between myself, des, cularge, minttrav and a few others in manchester after we were infomed only on saturday evening that the omaha had been cancelled even though we had been lead to believe different. deja-vu
Mark - the conversation in Brighton was around the fact that APAT had advertised a specific side event for Manchester and then not put it on, which I apologised for. I said we would look to avoid doing this in future, which we will. However I did not promise that we would be running a PLO in Brighton. as it transpires, we will be testing this new cash tournament format in Brighton and as per the above posts, we suggested from the outset that we were planning to test something new. We have very few opportunities to test formats and this definitely needs to be ran prior to any launch being considered for 2012.
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To say that a comment is an angle shoot is pretty offensive. It is nothing of the sort. I think it might be better if you want side events to be more polite. aAs it stands we are putting this on at Brighton. Nothing i Have ever said precludes that
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
sounds like an angle shoot to me stu.............i based my comments on a conversation between myself, des, cularge, minttrav and a few others in manchester after we were infomed only on saturday evening that the omaha had been cancelled even though we had been lead to believe different. deja-vu
What do you mean by "sounds like an angle shoot"?
-
Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
In!
Make it run constantly over the course of the week, It would make it probably the truest test of skill we have had yet....
If this could be achieved it would be great. Have wanted to do this for ages. Des/Tighty can this or anything like it be done?
If not maybe we can setup some kind of side bet based on cash success during the festival on the DTD tables.
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So the highest winners from the first round go into the second round, several of them then lose chips (maybe everything) and end up worse off than some of those knocked out in the first round.
What about banking a certain amount of the first round winnings?
No weeding aloud, they either quit with the lot or continue with the lot. besides the binds will be higher so you probably need bigger stacks.
Des, are you able to rebuy in Phase 2
If the stacks remained similar to the first round, then so would the blinds, obv.
But it doesn"t give it the feeling of a final table....
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Will there be anything in place to stop/ discourage players from "Hit & Running"? I fear there maybe a few..
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Will there be anything in place to stop/ discourage players from "Hit & Running"? I fear there maybe a few..
Players will have to pay the Grinder fee, so that should discourage Del. But ultimately there won"t be anything to stop a players taking part walking away at any point in the game.
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Tighty and I have discussed your initial thoughts and he has a list of items to discuss with the casino, which we hope will further smooth the format. Feedback from that will be posted here when those discussions have taken place.
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
Run two tables over an extended period of time (multi-day) one a "must move", and one the "main" or "TV" table. By running 2 tables players will be required to play the mm table until a seat becomes available, their stack will then be more comparable to the average stack on the main.
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- Players can exit the game at any point, but in doing so they forfeit their Grinder payment.
an option a player can retire 50% of stack one time in the game ( or only spet 1 or only step 2 or everywhere)
to take little profitt and continue to play
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I don"t like this idea at all. I also don"t like the idea of APAT ever being targetted at "higher end cash players". The first A in APAT stands for "Amateur". To me that means recreational. Take all APAT branding off it IMO.
Per the OP this is pretty pricey (for APAT) at potentially £112.50 + raked pots. The dynamic feels very "gambly".
I (well we) were priced out of Manchester by the increased buy-in at both ME and side event. The APAT direction is all pretty worrying.
I appreciate that new ideas are always good but alas we"ll be watching with interest from the sidelines. GL.
I must correct this. APAT a Manchester was a Pro-Am, at £100, replacing a London event at £250. It was known that this one event would have a higher buy in since January. Hardly pricing people out of APAT, nor is it indicative of a different direction. Nor is a cash tour trial necessarily indicating a different direction either
We"ve already said that APAT Nationals in s6 will be £75 as before
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
Working at and watching the Big game at DTD in the summer there were a list of 40-50 players that played the game over 48 hours
It might be possible for a WCOAP cash game to construct a list of interested players, start a game with names chosen at random at a point in time and run it whenever DTD is open for a period of 48-72 hours with players leaving as they please and going to the bottom of the waiting list if they want to go back on later
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Great idea and I like it in the OP format, let"s do this then make comment afterwards isn"t that the whole idea of a proof of concept?
Seat please Des :)
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Great idea and I like it in the OP format, let"s do this then make comment afterwards isn"t that the whole idea of a proof of concept?
Seat please Des :)
Good post. We"ll be putting up a seat reserve list when the casino and Rich have finalised some further details. Shout then.
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Great idea and I like it in the OP format, let"s do this then make comment afterwards isn"t that the whole idea of a proof of concept?
Seat please Des :)
sigh. How do you, of all people, make the most sensible post on a thread?!?!?!?
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Not going to Brighton but if I was I"d defo give it a go.
I reckon the rake taken at 9% in a 6 hour sesh would be around the £600 Mark if the pots are ave about £20 and 20-25 hands/hour
GL with this
Thanks Iain.
Chop that in half baby!!!!
5%!
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
sounds like an angle shoot to me stu.............i based my comments on a conversation between myself, des, cularge, minttrav and a few others in manchester after we were infomed only on saturday evening that the omaha had been cancelled even though we had been lead to believe different. deja-vu
Mark - the conversation in Brighton was around the fact that APAT had advertised a specific side event for Manchester and then not put it on, which I apologised for. I said we would look to avoid doing this in future, which we will. However I did not promise that we would be running a PLO in Brighton. as it transpires, we will be testing this new cash tournament format in Brighton and as per the above posts, we suggested from the outset that we were planning to test something new. We have very few opportunities to test formats and this definitely needs to be ran prior to any launch being considered for 2012.
Des
I need to clarify this point.
When we were discussion the PLO in Manchester, or lack of it, you did indeed apologise, but you also said, very clearly that there would be a PLO in Brighton as "previously advertised". It was a few minutes after this that the post was removed from the Brighton thread which stated this.
I too enjoy PLO and am also very disappointed to be let down again.
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PLO or ROE cash game obv...
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been away for a long weekend so missed the start of this thread.
firstly i wouldnt favour a cash tour on principle that APAT is an amatuer organisation however my biggest gripe is that it definitely shouldnt start at brighton but only at events thatt are officially 2012 events.
the reasoning for this comes from a conversation that i had with des and a handful of very regular APATERs at manchester.
a side event for PLO was advertised for manchester on which basis people booked 2-3 nights accomodation, time off work etc. i knew of lots of people expecting the omaha game however due to a logistic error it was cancelled. after a discussion with des and the previously mentioned APATERs we were told nothing can be done however not to worry - this wont happen again in brighton. no worries time booked off work, train booked as well as accomodation and now no OMAHA again.
personally i think it is bad form to suggest this change for brighton and should be suggested for future events that people havent made financial sacrifices based on previously advertised itineries.
With respect to the above, I don"t think a Side Event was advertised &/or confirmed for Brighton.
I know Tighty was going to try to get something arranged (I haven"t bothered to read the whole of that thread again to double check) but, as I said, nothing was AFAIK ever confirmed....so perhaps booking on that basis was premature.
EDIT...Apologies...something was confirmed...
Also is there a PLO Event????
We will be looking to discuss an event for the Sunday with the Rendezvous, so confirmation to follow. However, might test a different format, investigating now.
At the moment a £25 PLO is booked in, confirmed with the venue. Even if this changes (APATs choice) there will definitely be a side event on Day 2
Surely this handles that one? It says there will be a side event, just unconfirmed as to what it will be, Des even said they were looking at trying something different...
sounds like an angle shoot to me stu.............i based my comments on a conversation between myself, des, cularge, minttrav and a few others in manchester after we were infomed only on saturday evening that the omaha had been cancelled even though we had been lead to believe different. deja-vu
Mark - the conversation in Brighton was around the fact that APAT had advertised a specific side event for Manchester and then not put it on, which I apologised for. I said we would look to avoid doing this in future, which we will. However I did not promise that we would be running a PLO in Brighton. as it transpires, we will be testing this new cash tournament format in Brighton and as per the above posts, we suggested from the outset that we were planning to test something new. We have very few opportunities to test formats and this definitely needs to be ran prior to any launch being considered for 2012.
Des
I need to clarify this point.
When we were discussion the PLO in Manchester, or lack of it, you did indeed apologise, but you also said, very clearly that there would be a PLO in Brighton as "previously advertised". It was a few minutes after this that the post was removed from the Brighton thread which stated this.
I too enjoy PLO and am also very disappointed to be let down again.
I don"t organise individual events Richard, Tighty does. My comments in Manchester were that a) like you and Mark I wasn"t happy that an advertised side event didn"t occur, but even I wasn"t aware that it had been advertised some weeks prior and b) we would look to ensure this wouldn"t occur again.
I don"t know what post you are suggesting has been deleted, but we have not advertised a PLO event for Brighton. Rich Prew clarified that Brighton could run one if we wanted, but we have chosen to use that slot for a trial event. This was done for strategic reasons, not to disappoint people. Clearly we have ended up disappointing some members and that is regretable, but my responsibility to the membership as a whole is to continue to develop APAT so that it can serve you in the way we have over the past five years. This is not a market to stand still in.
You might recall that you and I had a discussion, as I also had separately with Mark and others, several weeks ago with regards the final two events of the season; which were either expensive or overseas. APAT worked to address the schedule for those last two events in line with our members wishes, but this needs to be a two way street at times.
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
Working at and watching the Big game at DTD in the summer there were a list of 40-50 players that played the game over 48 hours
It might be possible for a WCOAP cash game to construct a list of interested players, start a game with names chosen at random at a point in time and run it whenever DTD is open for a period of 48-72 hours with players leaving as they please and going to the bottom of the waiting list if they want to go back on later
If this can be done then lets do it.
I would suggest (and it is just a suggestion - may well not be that good of one) that some preference should be given to those who have contributed to threads in The Academy, as they would be like a measuring stick for other players to measure themselves against? I know this would push some (myself included) down the list but it would make it the most interesting table for people to watch on the stream. Also if it runs for 2 or 3 days everybody will get a chance anyway. I would love to clash with some of them on the cash tables. Oh the bragging rights out drawing Noble will bring :-), speaking of which I also really need a rematch with Delboy :-)
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I would suggest (and it is just a suggestion - may well not be that good of one) that some preference should be given to those who have contributed to threads in The Academy, as they would be like a measuring stick for other players to measure themselves against? I know this would push some (myself included) down the list but it would make it the most interesting table for people to watch on the stream. Also if it runs for 2 or 3 days everybody will get a chance anyway. I would love to clash with some of them on the cash tables. Oh the bragging rights out drawing Noble will bring :-), speaking of which I also really need a rematch with Delboy :-)
Would make for an incred live stream with a deep stacked cash table of APAT reg"s.
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Let me clarify the Manchester situation
I made a cock up with regard to the side event. I didn"t confirm it with the venue in the weeks before, having booked it in at outset. The venue didn"t confirm it with me either, but its my responsibility. In addition a player briefing went out ten days before Manchester with no mention of a side event. No one queried it at that point, so a combination of these things meant it slipped through the net
Embarrassing, but mistakes happen
In Manchester I spoke to the venue who confirmed they didn"t have the staff to put on a dealer dealt side event (unsurprisingly as I hadn"t confirmed it), and they"d prefer to run their two Sunday events.
They had received a few last minute phone calls from locals who had seen mention of it on this thread in the OP
http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=9935.0
Staff fielding phone calls were getting confused and I agreed to remove mention of the Omaha
You will note that the OP still contains mention of a PLO side at Brighton. I will edit this after Christmas, but as I don"t want to be accused of another angle shoot, perhaps I won"t.
No post has been deleted. Edited, but not deleted
At the time of speaking to the very small number of people in Manchester who queried the absence of an Omaha (Curlarge, jayteejack, perhaps two others) I did indeed confirm that an Omaha was planned for Brighton. At the time it was, and there were no discussions about trialling a cash Tour in Brighton until ten days ago
At that point we decided to switch across for reasons that have been outlined
I"m pretty miffed to a) be accused of an angle shoot and b) that jayteejack has despite requests for clarifcation from Des and myself not provided it, despite being on the forum today
I made a mistake, but I don"t like having my integrity questioned
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I made a mistake, but I don"t like having my integrity questioned
I would be extremely surprised, shocked even, if anyone on this forum deliberately questioned your integrity. Making plans based on an undertaking subsequently changed can be frustrating and inconvenient. Having an opinion is grand, to be encouraged actually. But there are better ways of expressing your disappointment and getting your point across than posting inflammatory remarks on an open forum. My own humble opinion of course.
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Just going through the thread suggests to me that many members of the forum are in disagreement over this so why don"t we (APAT) have some kind of vote on it? One member, one vote. I remember the disappointment of Manchester too as I"d thought a PLO would be taking place on the Sunday but that"s now history, so let"s focus on Brighton and beyond. I won"t lose sleep over which side event is organised, but do believe it should be in the interests of the majority.
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Just going through the thread suggests to me that many members of the forum are in disagreement over this so why don"t we (APAT) have some kind of vote on it? One member, one vote. I remember the disappointment of Manchester too as I"d thought a PLO would be taking place on the Sunday but that"s now history, so let"s focus on Brighton and beyond. I won"t lose sleep over which side event is organised, but do believe it should be in the interests of the majority.
Nice idea but lets just accept that this IS going to happen in Brighton and judge its success after the event.
Des has already said (I think) that this won"t replace the Side Events and I"m happy with that.
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Just going through the thread suggests to me that many members of the forum are in disagreement over this so why don"t we (APAT) have some kind of vote on it? One member, one vote. I remember the disappointment of Manchester too as I"d thought a PLO would be taking place on the Sunday but that"s now history, so let"s focus on Brighton and beyond. I won"t lose sleep over which side event is organised, but do believe it should be in the interests of the majority.
Nice idea but lets just accept that this IS going to happen in Brighton and judge its success after the event.
Des has already said (I think) that this won"t replace the Side Events and I"m happy with that.
why not let people vote with their feet/chips/money !!
Get a entry list going and see how many sign up. Not sure how many you need to test the proposal but I suspect it would need 30+.
Currently I am not planning on being there but will give it a go if I change plans.
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I remember the conversation in Manchester, though I was more a witness than a participant. Not a very good witness, however, as I can"t actually remember what Des said, apart from him apologising re Manchester. Sorry, I know that"s not much help but, as my name has been mentioned, I thought I"d better say rather than have people wondering why I"m not saying.
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This is silly. Why all the bitching and back-biting? The main APAT event will go ahead, and that is the most important part of the schedule... the side events are additional to the main tour and do not detract from what APAT offers. This thread is becoming unnecessarily personal and inappropriate in places.
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This is silly. Why all the bitching and back-biting? The main APAT event will go ahead, and that is the most important part of the schedule... the side events are additional to the main tour and do not detract from what APAT offers. This thread is becoming unnecessarily personal and inappropriate in places.
^^^this
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This is silly. Why all the bitching and back-biting? The main APAT event will go ahead, and that is the most important part of the schedule... the side events are additional to the main tour and do not detract from what APAT offers. This thread is becoming unnecessarily personal and inappropriate in places.
Thanks Steve.
All of that"s been sorted through a series of phone calls and pm"s last night and today. All done and dusted in a properly adult fashion. There"s hope for us all yet :)
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This is silly. Why all the bitching and back-biting? The main APAT event will go ahead, and that is the most important part of the schedule... the side events are additional to the main tour and do not detract from what APAT offers. This thread is becoming unnecessarily personal and inappropriate in places.
Who asked you anyway, baldie?
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
Working at and watching the Big game at DTD in the summer there were a list of 40-50 players that played the game over 48 hours
It might be possible for a WCOAP cash game to construct a list of interested players, start a game with names chosen at random at a point in time and run it whenever DTD is open for a period of 48-72 hours with players leaving as they please and going to the bottom of the waiting list if they want to go back on later
This would be a fantastic addition to the WCOAP schedule ...
L
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
Working at and watching the Big game at DTD in the summer there were a list of 40-50 players that played the game over 48 hours
It might be possible for a WCOAP cash game to construct a list of interested players, start a game with names chosen at random at a point in time and run it whenever DTD is open for a period of 48-72 hours with players leaving as they please and going to the bottom of the waiting list if they want to go back on later
If this can be done then lets do it.
I would suggest (and it is just a suggestion - may well not be that good of one) that some preference should be given to those who have contributed to threads in The Academy, as they would be like a measuring stick for other players to measure themselves against? I know this would push some (myself included) down the list but it would make it the most interesting table for people to watch on the stream. Also if it runs for 2 or 3 days everybody will get a chance anyway. I would love to clash with some of them on the cash tables. Oh the bragging rights out drawing Noble will bring :-), speaking of which I also really need a rematch with Delboy :-)
MAKE IT SO!
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Sort of related to this thread
What are the chances of arranging an "APAT - the cash game" at maybe the WCOAP. A standard cash game with some of the cash players from APAT playing against each other in a 50/£1 (under normal DTD rules) game would be good. We could have standard rake so it does not cost DTD anything and it"s not like they are going to be short on tables.
It would probably have to be NLHE (and maybe PLO) as this would make DTD the most money and players could make a donation to APAT at the end of their session if they wish (most players who win probably would). This would potentially make money for APAT and DTD whilst also giving APAT the cash game we have wanted for quite a while and also keeps the sharks away from our table (this might be a sticking point for DTD of course).
I would definitely come to DTD for this.
I think something related to cash at the WCOAP is a great idea. How do you suggest we allocate those nine seats though? I"m sure a lot of players would want to participate in something like this.
Working at and watching the Big game at DTD in the summer there were a list of 40-50 players that played the game over 48 hours
It might be possible for a WCOAP cash game to construct a list of interested players, start a game with names chosen at random at a point in time and run it whenever DTD is open for a period of 48-72 hours with players leaving as they please and going to the bottom of the waiting list if they want to go back on later
If this can be done then lets do it.
I would suggest (and it is just a suggestion - may well not be that good of one) that some preference should be given to those who have contributed to threads in The Academy, as they would be like a measuring stick for other players to measure themselves against? I know this would push some (myself included) down the list but it would make it the most interesting table for people to watch on the stream. Also if it runs for 2 or 3 days everybody will get a chance anyway. I would love to clash with some of them on the cash tables. Oh the bragging rights out drawing Noble will bring :-), speaking of which I also really need a rematch with Delboy :-)
MAKE IT SO!
This is a very good idea. To have a cash game running throughout the whole of WCOAP just for APATers would be an excellent. Not sure how you would police it, to keep a running total of winners/loseer, but i"m sure some clever person could sort this out.
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Some developments with the Cash Tour trial event to take place in Brighton.
1) We"ve changed the charging structure with the venue and players will now pay a one off 10% with their initial buy in, despite the event running off as a cash game. That 10% fee will be split between the venue and APAT and APAT's 5% will go towards the charges of running the event. The game will not be raked.
2) The top ten stacks overall at the end of phase one will go to the final table, not the top 2 at each table.
We will shortly open a seat reservation thread for the event and seats will be offered here before they are offered to local players and via the Rendezvous Facebook group. If a player is still in the main event for day 2, they will be able to pass on their Cash Tour seat.
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Some developments with the Cash Tour trial event to take place in Brighton.
1) We"ve changed the charging structure with the venue and players will now pay a one off 10% with their initial buy in, despite the event running off as a cash game. That 10% fee will be split between the venue and APAT and APAT's 5% will go towards the charges of running the event. The game will not be raked.
2) The top ten stacks overall at the end of phase one will go to the final table, not the top 2 at each table.
We will shortly open a seat reservation thread for the event and seats will be offered here before they are offered to local players and via the Rendezvous Facebook group. If a player is still in the main event for day 2, they will be able to pass on their Cash Tour seat.
Both excellent changes. :) Really hope this goes at DTD (and I get a seat)!
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Some developments with the Cash Tour trial event to take place in Brighton.
1) We"ve changed the charging structure with the venue and players will now pay a one off 10% with their initial buy in, despite the event running off as a cash game. That 10% fee will be split between the venue and APAT and APAT's 5% will go towards the charges of running the event. The game will not be raked.
2) The top ten stacks overall at the end of phase one will go to the final table, not the top 2 at each table.
We will shortly open a seat reservation thread for the event and seats will be offered here before they are offered to local players and via the Rendezvous Facebook group. If a player is still in the main event for day 2, they will be able to pass on their Cash Tour seat.
Nice, definitely playing now.
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Cash Tour - Seat Reservation Now Open (http://www.apat.com/forum/index.php?topic=10252.0)
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To comfirm how the charging will work for Cash Tour.
Each player who enters will be required to pay:-
£50 initial buy in
£10 grinder payment
£6 10% entry fee
There will be no additional rake charges.
Each player will be able to make one further buy in of £50, but only if they go broke during the first phase.
The additional buy in will not be subject to any additional charges.
The total of grinder payments will be won by the last standing player.
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To comfirm how the charging will work for Cash Tour.
Each player who enters will be required to pay:-
£50 initial buy in
£10 grinder payment
£6 10% entry fee
Each player will be able to make one further buy in of £50, but only if they go broke during the first phase.
The additional buy in will not be subject to any additional charges.
The total of grinder payments will be won by the last standing player.
Confirmed capped initial buy-in?
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To comfirm how the charging will work for Cash Tour.
Each player who enters will be required to pay:-
£50 initial buy in
£10 grinder payment
£6 10% entry fee
Each player will be able to make one further buy in of £50, but only if they go broke during the first phase.
The additional buy in will not be subject to any additional charges.
The total of grinder payments will be won by the last standing player.
Confirmed capped initial buy-in?
Yes, largely due to the fact that the majority of players assisting with the trial are tournament players and pitching a £66 "side event" is already quite a big ask by us.
If we go to rollout, then we may well look at that again.
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I will consider playing any tournament apat puts on but will never play cash,,,i can do that anywhere and without all the complications lol,,,just my opinion,,no offence intended !
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this could turn out to be more expensive than the main event, which I find quite bizarre. For many players the Sunday is for a different side event, and/or playing the casino cash games. This is a cash/tourney fusion, which unlike other cash games could lead to you being busted out after 3 hours or less, with no chance to break even again or make profit.
With a £66 buy in for £50 chips (then include the rake also) this is -ev all the way for me. That in addition to my thoughts above mean I won"t be playing this on the Sunday, so good luck to everyone who decides to play.
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this could turn out to be more expensive than the main event, which I find quite bizarre. For many players the Sunday is for a different side event, and/or playing the casino cash games. This is a cash/tourney fusion, which unlike other cash games could lead to you being busted out after 3 hours or less, with no chance to break even again or make profit.
With a £66 buy in for £50 chips (then include the rake also) this is -ev all the way for me. That in addition to my thoughts above mean I won"t be playing this on the Sunday, so good luck to everyone who decides to play.
This isn"t being raked and obviously the grinder payments remain part of the prize pool.
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this could turn out to be more expensive than the main event, which I find quite bizarre. For many players the Sunday is for a different side event, and/or playing the casino cash games. This is a cash/tourney fusion, which unlike other cash games could lead to you being busted out after 3 hours or less, with no chance to break even again or make profit.
With a £66 buy in for £50 chips (then include the rake also) this is -ev all the way for me. That in addition to my thoughts above mean I won"t be playing this on the Sunday, so good luck to everyone who decides to play.
This isn"t being raked and obviously the grinder payments remain part of the prize pool.
Apologies if i missed this Des, so many comments on the thread previously about rake. I"m still not keen to play in a cash game with time limit, buy-in restriction, and which may ultimately be more expensive than the main event with smaller reward. It just doesn"t add up for me i"m afraid. I do though believe the ongoing cash game (e.g. at DTD) is a fantastic option for the longer duration events.
Cheers, Grant
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this could turn out to be more expensive than the main event, which I find quite bizarre. For many players the Sunday is for a different side event, and/or playing the casino cash games. This is a cash/tourney fusion, which unlike other cash games could lead to you being busted out after 3 hours or less, with no chance to break even again or make profit.
With a £66 buy in for £50 chips (then include the rake also) this is -ev all the way for me. That in addition to my thoughts above mean I won"t be playing this on the Sunday, so good luck to everyone who decides to play.
This isn"t being raked and obviously the grinder payments remain part of the prize pool.
Apologies if i missed this Des, so many comments on the thread previously about rake. I"m still not keen to play in a cash game with time limit, buy-in restriction, and which may ultimately be more expensive than the main event with smaller reward. It just doesn"t add up for me i"m afraid. I do though believe the ongoing cash game (e.g. at DTD) is a fantastic option for the longer duration events.
Cheers, Grant
It"s absolutely fine to not play Grant, I just wanted to correct the rake comment, because there is such a lot of detail on this thread. :)
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this could turn out to be more expensive than the main event, which I find quite bizarre. For many players the Sunday is for a different side event, and/or playing the casino cash games. This is a cash/tourney fusion, which unlike other cash games could lead to you being busted out after 3 hours or less, with no chance to break even again or make profit.
With a £66 buy in for £50 chips (then include the rake also) this is -ev all the way for me. That in addition to my thoughts above mean I won"t be playing this on the Sunday, so good luck to everyone who decides to play.
This isn"t being raked and obviously the grinder payments remain part of the prize pool.
Apologies if i missed this Des, so many comments on the thread previously about rake. I"m still not keen to play in a cash game with time limit, buy-in restriction, and which may ultimately be more expensive than the main event with smaller reward. It just doesn"t add up for me i"m afraid. I do though believe the ongoing cash game (e.g. at DTD) is a fantastic option for the longer duration events.
Cheers, Grant
It"s absolutely fine to not play Grant, I just wanted to correct the rake comment, because there is such a lot of detail on this thread. :)
Cheers Des I"ll inc still be at the casino playing/railing on the Sunday regardless, looking forward to Brighton immensely :)
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Congratulations to Brian Martin who won the Cash Tour event.
Brian travelled over from Krakow to defend his European Amateur title, which he failed to do despite progressing well through most of day one.
Hopefully winning the first ever Cash Tour event will be a consolation. :)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-euZrreAOK-o/TxytRy2jtZI/AAAAAAAAvBE/1lVLOZ6DaQ4/s720/IMG_0239.JPG)
The final top five positions were:-
Brian Martin - £410 + £320 Grinder payment - for his £60 buy in.
Lukas Daszyski - £280
Neil Godfrey - £279
Mark Lassman - £237
John Murray - £169.
13 of the 32 entrants walked away with money.
We"d love to hear feedback from the players who participated on how you found the event and how the format might be improved.
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Well done Brian ;D
Thought the Cash tour was well run, and most enjoyable. There didn"t seem to be any of the "shoving in" scenario"s as the countdown started near the end of the first phase (ppl on John Murray"s table may beg to differ ;D).
Much preferred this to the usual side FO, it was different, relaxed, choice in our hands to walk away at any time etc. Whether this was due to the brilliant atmosphere and well run room, I don"t know, but would def be up for playing this again as the Sunday side.
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Congrats to Brian a very nice ROI for a few hours work :).
Have no complaints, as always run very well... made a whole profit of exactly £4.00!! after cashing out for £70 obv sick brag on my half... Had a very fun table with 3 local players at it, obv this was a huge advantage to them as they knew each others game and was can i say "interesting" to sit and watch.. one or two hands spring to mind each time in Debbies big blind (think it was Debbie? local player American ) once when she shoved in the dark from her BB for £39 she turned over ten three off and rivered trip 3s to bust over pair!!.. then a few hands later with chip leader another local at my table Dean i believe sitting with £200+ raised from the button with QQ for about £80 she snapped called all in with A6 off!! and rivered runner straight :o :o :o for a big pot.. made it a little bit of a shove fest towards the end but no more than expected regarding format..
Enjoyed the game was a fun concept and congratulations for APAT for trying a new concept..
On a personal note i still prefer a strictly tournament only concept as a side event, if i wanted to play cash then the options are there at that casino to fulfill this need.. am glad i tried was entertaining but please if possible bring back.. PLO/PLOHL Stud etc will 100% play these at future meets..