Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: MrBlack on April 12, 2012, 12:12:03 PM
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Hi folks. Just wondering what everyone has done to improve their game? Recently I feel like im very limited in my game, both live and online (yes ive dipped back into it again). Live, ive reached alot of final tables but usually with a shortstack due to one silly hand. But even with a decent stack, my endgame isnt all that good.
My online play though, is horrendous, literally useless. Im just wondering what I can do to improve, some reccommendations would be nice, and would also be cool to hear what other people have done with some obvious results.
Also, said tournaments are only £10 buy-ins
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Firstly, welcome to the forum.
Your post is very vague tbh and could be paraphrased as...
How do you get good at Poker cos I"m not very good.
Some useful info so as people could address the key areas for you, how long are you playing? what games do you play? have you read any poker books, what style of play do you adopt?
Live, ive reached alot of final tables but usually with a shortstack
This is a common statement from beginners (not saying you are a beginner btw) and usually results from not playing enough hands. The problem is that as you play more hands you open yourself up to getting in tough spots and making big mistakes in big pots.
Reading strategy HH"s on here and elsewhere and contributing to the debates is probably the single best method for learning and improving imho. GL with your endeavours.
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I finally started to run good. lol.
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Hi folks. Just wondering what everyone has done to improve their game? Recently I feel like im very limited in my game, both live and online (yes ive dipped back into it again). Live, ive reached alot of final tables but usually with a shortstack due to one silly hand. But even with a decent stack, my endgame isnt all that good.
My online play though, is horrendous, literally useless. Im just wondering what I can do to improve, some reccommendations would be nice, and would also be cool to hear what other people have done with some obvious results.
Also, said tournaments are only £10 buy-ins
Just wondering what everyone has done to improve their game?
what did i do to improve my game? hmmmm :)
for me, i"d spend vast amounts of time trying to discover spots/situations which are given to much credit where nobody would suspect i would be bluffing, so i"d just bluff a lot until somebody caught on. :)
the good players will be the ones to catch on to the fact what i am doing, so then its a simple matter of adjusting and cutting out the bluffing against them and doing it even more for value... but i i would still do it to the ones who would continue to fold for whatever reason, be it there style or there stubbornness to play by the book :)
likewise the opposite with value hands, i look for spots or lines of play that i could take where i wont be given much credit..
Im just wondering what I can do to improve
think a lot, be out of the box...
try to learn the fundamentals/basic concepts as well as u can...
get good at hand reading :)
i posted this in the donkey thread that might interest u - http://web.mit.edu/willma/www/lec7.pdf
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Play some PLO200 cash.
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Play some PLO200 cash.
.....yeah, and play the Sunday Warmup on PokerStars also.... ;)
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Play less tables 1 or 2....takes copious amounts of notes....n concentrate when out of hands.....look for spots....be aware of your image and take advantage
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Welcome Mr Black and hope you"re here for the longer term. I"d say post specific hands, ask specific questions and take it all on board. I"m sure i"m not alone in gaining many pieces of knowledge from the guys & gals on here, despite the fact I"ve admittedly disgreed sometimes. If you disgaree with a particular point or don"t understand what"s being said then question it, but don"t be too stubborn to try new approaches coz you believe one thing and they advise another. the likes of Noble, George2loose, Brendan et al will try to help you improve and like I said I"ve not always initially got my head round some of the advice, but i"ve been game enough to try the stuff out.
Figure out what you do wrong, identify the weaknesses and cut them out. Do you play too many hands? Do you call too often out of position? Do you know anything about the the people at your table? Position is vital, picking out the weaklings is vital, knowing when to dump a hand in bad shape is vital (not one of my strengths ::) ) Finally......raggy aces can be occasionally lucrative but will often bust your chops ;)
GL mate
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From my point of view:
- Keep Records, its too easy to have a too inflated or pessimistic outlook on ones abilities use Pokertracker etc for online and a smart phone app for live (Poker Journal on IPhone is my fav).
- Make notes - Unless you"ve got photographic memory keep even the most basic notes on your common adversaries
- BankRoll mgt - I know everyones eyes roll over but for me its the most important aspect of Poker! Clearly set yourself poker goals, pick the right levels of buy-in and analyse your records to figure out if its working and where"s next.
- Mix it up - Poker is a broad church, there are many games, formats and styles. For me just playing Holdem is just 1 dimensional, having an appreciation of other games and formats will make you a better holdem player IMO.
- Study, Read, Discuss - Just playing poker could be like teaching yourself to drive, how do you know if you"ve got bad habits as the variance of the game can hide demons.
- Play more poker! Get out there play in different venues, challenge yourself and get out of your comfort zone once in a while!
Hope I dont sound too preachy, most importantly enjoy it, as if its not Fun then whats the point!
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Hi guys. Yeah here for the long term, you may see me at apat live. Im swamped with coursework at the moment so i"ll reply properly later. Thanks for the replies so far!
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Welcome to the Forum, good luck with any live APAT's you play as well.
To begin with reading your OP, I assume you are a tournament player, does not sound like you are doing too bad.
"Live, ive reached alot of final tables but usually with a shortstack due to one silly hand"
Well if you are reaching final tables you are doing something right. Explain one silly hand, where do you think you are going wrong, what mistake are you making? If you are unsure just explain some hands where you lost chips and we can have a look at them, maybe post the in the Strategy section as their own thread.
Some simple things you can do:-
1) Review sessions when they are complete, find hands where you make mistakes, ask better players about them.
2) As you review the sessions make notes about the regular players you play against (this is more important in cash tbh).
3) Listen to advice you are given, you won"t agree with all of it and you don"t have to use it all but think about if it might make sense before disregarding it.
4) Read and contribute the the discussion on these boards comment on hands and ask questions.
Obviously improving is not something you just do, you have to work hard at it and put in the time , look through the hands you have played and you slowly find leaks and plug them you also gain a better understanding of the way players generally play certain spots.
Hope we keep this thread going as it could get very good.
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I cant realy remember any at the moment but next time i go i"ll try type/record a few into my phone then post them up. I realised i was playing too many marginal hands, bleeding chip and then when the levels go up, my stack is below average and doesnt give me much maneouver room.
Sometimes aswell I do give to much credit, but, when I dont give anyone credit it seems to be the wrong decision. For example, I was playing a bounty tournament the other day. The blinds were 800/1600. Guy open shoves UTG+1 for something like 8/9000 and its folded around to me in the BB, I look down at 44. I only have around 18,000. I should have realised he wasnt playing many hands, I thought there was a good chance I could be ahead, I was putting him on 2 paint, I called and he flipped over JJ and I lost. Was this the right call?
Regarding position, yes sometimes I dont pay attention as much as I should do and sometimes miss where I am or where others are. Even when we get deep and steep, i only ever take M into account once or twice.
Thaanks guys btw, starting to find some leaks already and its helping.
Indeed, this could be a good discussion thread.
Also, about studying. Winning chances, and the mathematics are something I wish to understand fuly (im not too shabby at mental arithmetic). What would be some recommended reading?
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If your struggling at FTs then I recommend you play some single table Sit n Go"s.
The dynamics change all the time in these games and you get used to short stacks, big blinds and short handed play very quickly.
Post your losing/marginal hands up. Plenty of people on here will be able to tell you where you are going wrong
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I cant realy remember any at the moment but next time i go i"ll try type/record a few into my phone then post them up. I realised i was playing too many marginal hands, bleeding chip and then when the levels go up, my stack is below average and doesnt give me much maneouver room.
Sometimes aswell I do give to much credit, but, when I dont give anyone credit it seems to be the wrong decision. For example, I was playing a bounty tournament the other day. The blinds were 800/1600. Guy open shoves UTG+1 for something like 8/9000 and its folded around to me in the BB, I look down at 44. I only have around 18,000. I should have realised he wasnt playing many hands, I thought there was a good chance I could be ahead, I was putting him on 2 paint, I called and he flipped over JJ and I lost. Was this the right call?
Regarding position, yes sometimes I dont pay attention as much as I should do and sometimes miss where I am or where others are. Even when we get deep and steep, i only ever take M into account once or twice.
Thaanks guys btw, starting to find some leaks already and its helping.
Indeed, this could be a good discussion thread.
Also, about studying. Winning chances, and the mathematics are something I wish to understand fuly (im not too shabby at mental arithmetic). What would be some recommended reading?
Download Pokerstove HERE (http://www.pokerstove.com/site/index.php) and run some hand versus range match ups, it will develope your understanding of your equity in various spots.
For example, when deciding whether to call an all in with 44 for half your stack. You estimate a range of hands that villain will shove with his 6 bb stack, say he shoves 50% of hands ( most will be shoving tighter ranges than this )
33+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o
versus this range 44 has ~51% equity ( will expect to win 51% of the time )
If you are totally out of your depth versus the field, you should call.
If as I suspect you have somewhat of an edge versus the field, folding is superior to flipping.
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Also, about studying. Winning chances, and the mathematics are something I wish to understand fuly (im not too shabby at mental arithmetic). What would be some recommended reading?
understanding ranges -
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/"G-Bucks"-Conceptualizing-Money-Matters.-Phil-Galfond-985.htm
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/Wait,-Weight-Phil-Galfond-932.htm
http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/mathematics/g-bucks/
counting combo"s etc etc is a form of Bayes Theorem like Galfond points out, against predictable players its great :) but against very good players who mix up their play since they are smart and logical, you simply have to use a opponent model that includes the concept of mixing it up... they will make plays based on implied odds and bluffing and deception, but they generally won"t make purely bad plays, so guesstimation as i call it is required :)
the concept of guesstimation is also needed for BAD players :) because generally the worse the opponent, the less precision you will have in your estimation, because there play is very erratic :) so when you are thinking about their play, you have to think that they just may be making a huge mistake pre or post, and allow for that in your guesstimations :)
a bit of maths -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_probability_(Texas_hold_%27em)
going back to the subject/concept of ranges for differing styles/skill levels of opponents -
you need to use a model in your head that"s specific to each inidividual - are they loose, aggressive, do they mix it up, are they just a bad player that plays every hand, etc. :)
for any estimation, you need to think about the situation yourself and your opponent/s maybe in, post flop try to take the ranges idea to the point where you can imagine how a opponent will react with there range based on what your action might be, or how do they view your range when they bet and see you call etc etc... try to guesstimate what your opponent will have in the future if you make a certain action and how his range will respond...
nothing new in the above, thats basically poker boiled down....
and on improving in general here is a Galfond quote to think about - Think about the value of plays that you often don't consider. Think about different ways a hand can play out, and what you have to gain or lose by taking an alternate line.
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Also, about studying. Winning chances, and the mathematics are something I wish to understand fuly (im not too shabby at mental arithmetic). What would be some recommended reading?
understanding ranges -
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/"G-Bucks"-Conceptualizing-Money-Matters.-Phil-Galfond-985.htm
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/Wait,-Weight-Phil-Galfond-932.htm
http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/mathematics/g-bucks/
counting combo"s etc etc is a form of Bayes Theorem like Galfond points out, against predictable players its great :) but against very good players who mix up their play since they are smart and logical, you simply have to use a opponent model that includes the concept of mixing it up... they will make plays based on implied odds and bluffing and deception, but they generally won"t make purely bad plays, so guesstimation as i call it is required :)
the concept of guesstimation is also needed for BAD players :) because generally the worse the opponent, the less precision you will have in your estimation, because there play is very erratic :) so when you are thinking about their play, you have to think that they just may be making a huge mistake pre or post, and allow for that in your guesstimations :)
a bit of maths -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_probability_(Texas_hold_%27em)
going back to the subject/concept of ranges for differing styles/skill levels of opponents -
you need to use a model in your head that"s specific to each inidividual - are they loose, aggressive, do they mix it up, are they just a bad player that plays every hand, etc. :)
for any estimation, you need to think about the situation yourself and your opponent/s maybe in, post flop try to take the ranges idea to the point where you can imagine how a opponent will react with there range based on what your action might be, or how do they view your range when they bet and see you call etc etc... try to guesstimate what your opponent will have in the future if you make a certain action and how his range will respond...
nothing new in the above, thats basically poker boiled down....
and on improving in general here is a Galfond quote to think about - Think about the value of plays that you often don't consider. Think about different ways a hand can play out, and what you have to gain or lose by taking an alternate line.
Fair play Mark, keeping it simple ;D
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The Mathematics of poker is pretty easy really, more so when you have all the tools to help you these days. We are all sort of shooting in the dark here though, the best way to understand all this is to look at real hands and comment on them and read other peoples comments.
I would say that looking back through your own hands is the best way to go and when you see an interesting one post it, even if you think you played it right, you may get an interesting new way of looking at things, at the very least you will see how other people may look at similar situations. Make notes on opponents as you review the hands (include flop texture in these, is it flushing pr rainbow, wet or dry). Look at bet sizing when reviewing sessions as there are a lot of tells in this.
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u want simple? :)
do you know what you are going to do if you flop mid pair? or say if u raised QTo and the flop is Q74r and get action? what do u do if the flop is Q92 2flushed and u get check minraised? can you answer these questions depending on if the player is tight/loose/aggressive/passive? if they have a 150/100/70/50/30 BB stack? can you think about all this, put them on a range and calculate your equity of your mediocre hand OOP and then make a profitable decision?
if not then u need to think about it a little more in depth... thats how u improve... :)
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Ok guys hand from tonight. Not really a thinker but, just want to evaluate my thinking etc.
blinds are 300/600
I pick up AQdd in the sb.
A guy utg+2 shoves his shortstack of 1600.
Guy beside him flat calls the 1600 and leaves himself around 3500 behind.
Hijack calls aswell leaving around 14000 behind.
Now, when it gets to me in the SB im thinking I should shove, infact i almost did. But, having not seen many hands at the table except for AA/KK being slow played. I opt to call.
Flop is T88 rainbow, no diamond. MP checks, HJ bets, and i opt to fold. Was this the right play? Had I shoved I would have spiked an Ace on the river, and the HJ had JTo . If I shove PF, im headsup against the shorty who had 77.
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What stack did u have? Pretty important. I dont think im ever folding AQs here though, the guy who flats the shove has only got 6 BBs behind (weird for him to just flat), and the guy who over calls from H/J has a pretty wide range. I would shove here with AQs.
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Sorry I thought I had mentioned that. I had around 17000 total. Not sure why I didnt shove because I was kicking myself that I didnt.
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Another nline hand. Was this just a cooler for me? http://www.pokerhand.org/?6377316
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Another nline hand. Was this just a cooler for me? http://www.pokerhand.org/?6377316
use pokerstove, check your equity, ignore results and assess whether you made the correct play and more importantly, for the correct reason.
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Yes, the JJ hand is a cooler. It"s pretty easy to eliminate AA, KK and QQ from his range as he should be raising with those hands pre. Given what his hand actually is I am assuming he has a wide range here being very generous to him you are about 55% against his range. I am assuming he makes this play with any Ace high flush draw and OESD, top pair, two pair, a set and a straight. I think in actual fact if he had a really big hand he might call or raise less so you are probably actually better than the 55% shown here.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
112,860 games 0.004 secs 28,215,000 games/sec
Board: 5s 9s 8c
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.443% 54.91% 00.53% 61975 598.50 { JdJs }
Hand 1: 44.557% 44.03% 00.53% 49688 598.50 { TT-88, 55, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KsQs, KsJs, QsJs, JsTs, Ts9s, T7s, 98s, 85s, 76s, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, T7o, 98o, 85o, 76o }
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The AdQd hand is tougher. The shortstacks shove should be really wide (although it depends how he got to less than 3BB did he blind down or did he lose an allin as if he blinded down his range is stronger but to be honest it does not matter much). The flat caller leaving just 3500 behind is a strange play as he should be calling any reraise, he hand should be pretty strong but often isn"t. The Hijacks call is probably a pretty wide range but not that strong of a hand as if he had a hand like QQ+ or AK then he should be putting the caller allin.
Let"s try and put them on Ranges
UTG +2 = Any ace, Any Pair and any two broadway
MP Caller = 88+ and Broadway with an Ace
Cut off = Some not premium hand he can call with
So I predict if we shove the MP caller is going to call and the cut off is going to fold, this happens most of the time. I can"t see that the cut off is going to be trapping often here. So we end up creating the following
Main pot = 5400
Side Pot = 7000
We need to put 4800 in the pot (in addition to the SB which was in anyway) and we don"t have to worry about being OOP.
Our chance of winning the mainpot is about 35%
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.732% 22.20% 01.53% 637564173 43945573.67 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 40.692% 37.72% 02.97% 1083346408 85221292.17 { 88+, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 2: 35.576% 31.89% 03.69% 915723396 105928787.17 { AdQd }
We are also 50/50 for the side pot
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
138,696,624 games 0.001 secs 138,696,624,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.112% 43.91% 06.20% 60903120 8601169.50 { 88+, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 49.888% 43.69% 06.20% 60591165 8601169.50 { AdQd }
The ranges I have assigned here are pretty tight and the situation could quite easily be better for you.
So from a cEV point of view
We invest 4800 chips and win a pot of 12400 so make a profit of 7600 35% of the time
We invest 4800 chips and win a pot of 7000 so make a profit of 2200 32% of the time
We lose 4800 chips 33% of the time
So on average if our reads are right we win 1780 chips per hand if we shove (this assume a fold from the cut off). So its basically got to be a shove unless something about one of the players makes you think otherwise and it would need to be a soul read. What would help is having the VP$IP and PFR of the players if you have them although in either of these cases it is unlikely to change what you should do.
Sorry if this post goes on a bit. I am not that great at explaining this sort of situation fully, just try to get across why you do what you do.
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I most definitley should have shoved the AQ hand but live and learn. Havent been playing much as ive moved back home and there is no live poker in NI unfrtunately. Thanks for the response btw, it has helped alot!
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2 more hands for you guys to nit pick. http://www.pokerhand.org/?6389342 ? cooler? or can i fold? no reads as its zoom.
this one really annoyed me.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?6389338
When he raises i was putting him on AJ+/QQ+ . The raise to me screamed like overpair. Ive been caught like this far too many times so I was wary of stacking off. Looking back now, I fear he may have been doing it to get a bigger ace to fold or a flush draw to fold. Unfortunately I"ll not know what he had.
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Hand 1 is fine. Id recomend having auto top-up on as u will be losing value in the long-term.
Hand 2. Again top up. Don"t like the flat oop readless. 3b or fold pre. As played, one of the few reasons I would donk this flop w/ ur hand would be to induce vs aggro opponents. In general tho, I think b/f"n tpgk on a wet board is a mistake. As played w/ 50x to start, I"m more than happy to get it in here.
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hand 1 standard.
Hand 2 i really hate the peel. Just fold, i dont think you are deep enough for a 3 bet (or i personally wouldnt) Once u hit i would rather check shove. Why did u donk bet? was it to find out where you are at? This is a leak if you donk bet in cash games. Obviously there are times when you can get agressive players to bluff raise because it looks so fishy. anyway, doesnt make much sense to fold now. In micro cash games i see players donk bet all the time, and i just raise it and usually take it down there and then.
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Hand 1 - is simple on that board, you beat so many other Ax hands that you just want to get it in, people will call you with top pair here often enough to make a good profit. Your equity is not that bad against his actual hand either.
Hand 2 - As played I probably get it in, which is probably wrong as I doubt he is raising pre and then raising our donk bet with much we beat but we only have 50BB and when we hit top pair good kicker we don"t really have much option. I would fold pre out of position though.
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Probably just keep calling hand 1 but never folding just unlucky.
Hand 2 is a bit meh but I tend to be snug from the SB to EP opens and I would be folding KQ and KJ here a decent amount of the time. Donking out flop is not great, info bets are so 2002 (folds worse, calls or jams better = not a good bet). This made worse if villain is capable of jamming worse such as QJ or draws. Problems in this hand start preflop really, be really tight from the blinds as a default to start with and you should improve