Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: mrmacacan on August 26, 2008, 11:19:09 AM
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OK what would you do, think about it and be honest.
You have played umpteen satellites, hours and hours of playing
and YES you have won a seat in the WSOP main event.
You sit down the dealers begin, you are on the button.
You look at your cards and they are AA.
A, There is a all in from mid position,folds round to you ------ you fold or call and why ?
B, There is a raise and a re-raise all in, folds round to you -------you fold or call and why ?
C, There is a raise re-raise a re-raise all in and a call, folds round to you ---- you fold or call and why ?
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Might get a few responses but I would fold on every one (instant).
A, You call, you know he as a hand so you are probably 80% fav in most cases.
are these good enough odds to risk the biggest game in your life ?
If you did double up what odds would you be to win the comp as opposed to before the hand ?, sure someone will know, how many players have doubled up early and made the final table ?, not many I would think.
B and C, against 2 or more players your odds come down to 70% or less, with 4 in the hand you might be talking around 50%, not even worth thinking about IMO.
I would rather play and just chip away at players chips for a while before making any massive moves.
Just my opinion.
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Why enter the WSOP if you are not going to play AA the way you normally would? I will not fold AA preflop in the face of one allin raise 100% of the time because I have the nuts and can use a bigger stack to boss the table, if I get beat I will enjoy all the other delights that vegas has to offer. 2 allin raises, i"ll still call, 3 now I will have to think hard but might still call as I am odds on favourite to win the hand. How can you expect to cash, never mind win, if you dont get your chips in ahead? Also, if I bust out, at least I can say I had the best of it. :)
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Why enter the WSOP if you are not going to play AA the way you normally would? ...
In a deepstack tournament I would normally fold in these circumstances.
In a crapshoot I"d call all of them because you need to keep ahead of the blinds so it"s worth risking more - but this certainly doesn"t apply to the WSOP Main Event (or any other deep stack tournament)
Why play any deepstack event if you are only going to play it in the same way as a crapshoot?
... How can you expect to cash, never mind win, if you dont get your chips in ahead? ...
This makes the assumption that calling is +EV and folding is -EV.
This only takes account of this hand in isolation - but (if you stay in) you have hundreds and hundreds of more hands to also take in to account.
The benefit from the initial bigger stack you have won"t last that long
So I"d suggest that calling is +EV but folding is bigger +EV.
NB:
...3 now I will have to think hard but might still call as I am odds on favourite to win the hand. ...
You are odds on favourite to lose to one of the other players.
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A-All-in
B-All-in
C-All-in
Absolute no brainers, I"m 100% guaranteed ahead and may not get the same chance in the tourney, why the fk would I fold.
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A-All-in
B-All-in
C-All-in
Absolute no brainers, I"m 100% guaranteed ahead and may not get the same chance in the tourney, why the fk would I fold.
what he said. im afraid im just not a good enough poker player to lay down aces pre flop....guilty as charged ;D
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any other tournie id be all in, not an issue..but WSOP..my first time..I"d think i"d fold, purely to try to experiance more of the WSOP....and wait, and hope i got aa later, much later so at least if i do get knocked out later, i have enjoyed and experienced more of the WSOP..
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i would be calling on the basis that this is no limit hold em and you can be knocked out any of the next hands..all it takes is somebody to hit their one outer then your gone..my personal opinion is if your willing to do that then what happens when you play and hit your hands... your left thinking the worst case scenario..eg ive flopped top pair, he"s betting into me does he have a set..etc etc
you may never hit your monster and then you will be left to rue not playing those aces!
that said though, a very tricky dilema
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A-All-in
B-All-in
C-All-in
Absolute no brainers, I"m 100% guaranteed ahead and may not get the same chance in the tourney, why the fk would I fold.
what he said. im afraid im just not a good enough poker player to lay down aces pre flop....guilty as charged ;D
what ross said for the reasons billy said
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With Jon on this one. In a deepstack tournie like the WSOP why risk your life so early. So you might double up, but you can also quite easily be on your way out the door. Patience is the name of the game in deepstack poker. IMHO.
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Call every time , deep stack no difference if you want to win you cannot play scared poker. I wouldnt care what tourneyit is you have to play for win you know you have best hand so get it in there.
I understand your thinking but you are favourite to win and get a massive stack and you can have a lot more fun at the tourney when you cant be busted!!
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... In a deepstack tournie like the WSOP why risk your life so early. So you might double up, but you can also quite easily be on your way out the door....
Some time later on in this tournament - you will be able to gain over 10,000 chips by stealing the blinds.
Just trying to emphasise how little those chips are worth.
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To be fair the value of the chips are all in relation to the blinds jon and to get to the stage of the tourney when you can steal 10k i believe if you can get your chips in pre flop with aces you should do. Yes you might make early exit but you also the more likely scenario have lots of chips to take a bad beat or a mistake later which will not send you home cos you doubled tripled up early
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To be fair the value of the chips are all in relation to the blinds jon and to get to the stage of the tourney when you can steal 10k i believe if you can get your chips in pre flop with aces you should do. Yes you might make early exit but you also the more likely scenario have lots of chips to take a bad beat or a mistake later which will not send you home cos you doubled tripled up early
If you"re up against more than one person you"re favourite to lose.
Also to win the tournament (and you are talking about playing to win aren"t you?) you need to win all the chips in play.
You"re willing to risk your tournament to win less than 0.02% of the chips in play?
The average winning hand in holdem is 2 pair, don"t you think you should have at least the average hand before you risk all your chips?
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with scouse on this one. The advantage of being chipped up is massive. Of course it doesn"t gaurantee anything, but it gives you scope to further build your stack and take a hit/badbeat without losing too much momentum. A lot of pros risk a lot to get chips early, and even scenario C, whilst being a big risk, is probably worth it. The fact that it is the WSOP should not come in to it. Even on the downside, it makes for a good story to tell your mates you went out in the very first hand holding pocket aces.
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To be honest jon i would against 1 , 2 defo and prob 3 , 4 5 bit more unlilkley, but even more unlikely it would happen to be fair.
And you think of range of cards people would go all in with would be big pair or AK so you have em dominated you are thinking of any 2 random cards. In reality you would prob only have to dodge 2 outs for each player and it could be kk v kk v qq v qq v your aces where that is some value!
I understand your thinking why risk your tourney life but i think why not and would take the all in pre flop when i know i am the most likely player to win (i know 4 v me the 4 may be fav but i am most likely singular)
I could understand comments if it was 4 rock stars all in blind put if real players i believ hands above would come into play so would call ! at wost you would split with another aa of someone hits 2, 4 outs ! Just my opion and there is no right or wrong answer , they are players chips and players opinion
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To be honest jon i would against 1 , 2 defo and prob 3 , 4 5 bit more unlilkley, but even more unlikely it would happen to be fair.
And you think of range of cards people would go all in with would be big pair or AK so you have em dominated you are thinking of any 2 random cards. In reality you would prob only have to dodge 2 outs for each player and it could be kk v kk v qq v qq v your aces where that is some value!
I understand your thinking why risk your tourney life but i think why not and would take the all in pre flop when i know i am the most likely player to win (i know 4 v me the 4 may be fav but i am most likely singular)
I could understand comments if it was 4 rock stars all in blind put if real players i believ hands above would come into play so would call ! at wost you would split with another aa of someone hits 2, 4 outs ! Just my opion and there is no right or wrong answer , they are players chips and players opinion
Good Post
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cheers jon , a compliment on my 100th post ( well 101st lol ) but almost !!
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A-All-in
B-All-in
C-All-in
Absolute no brainers, I"m 100% guaranteed ahead and may not get the same chance in the tourney, why the fk would I fold.
Yep every time - but hey it"s me ;D ;D ;D
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cheers jon , a compliment on my 100th post ( well 101st lol ) but almost !!
But I still think that playing a deepstack tournament with the same strategies and tactics as a shortstacked one is a fundamental mistake.
You stick to shoving your (100 big blinds) chips in when you have the best hand preflop.
I"ll stick with shoving them in when I have the best hand post river. ;)
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Just out of interest, why is the thinking different because it"s the WSOP main event?
I"d probably fold in situation C, but I almost certainly call in B and definitely in A. How can you fold in situation A? What difference does it make that it"s the first hand? Is 20,000 not quite big enough a pot to risk your tournament so early? At what point does it become not too early before you"ll play Aces? I know it"s a ten day tournament, but there"s cautious and there"s being too cautious. I"d probably call with Kings in situation A.
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Just out of interest, why is the thinking different because it"s the WSOP main event?
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It isn"t, it"s different because it"s a deep stack long clock tournament.
... At what point does it become not too early before you"ll play Aces? ...
If I was falling behind the average stack I"d consider it, and if I was down to less than say 30 big blinds I"d consider it.
But generally I don"t want to play my hands pre flop, and I"d have to be fairly desperate to put all my chips in when I only have a pair.
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Just out of interest, why is the thinking different because it"s the WSOP main event?
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It isn"t, it"s different because it"s a deep stack long clock tournament.
... At what point does it become not too early before you"ll play Aces? ...
If I was falling behind the average stack I"d consider it, and if I was down to less than say 30 big blinds I"d consider it.
But generally I don"t want to play my hands pre flop, and I"d have to be fairly desperate to put all my chips in when I only have a pair.
You always fold Aces in deep stack tournaments apart from in the two scenarios you mentioned?
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Just out of interest, why is the thinking different because it"s the WSOP main event?
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It isn"t, it"s different because it"s a deep stack long clock tournament.
... At what point does it become not too early before you"ll play Aces? ...
If I was falling behind the average stack I"d consider it, and if I was down to less than say 30 big blinds I"d consider it.
But generally I don"t want to play my hands pre flop, and I"d have to be fairly desperate to put all my chips in when I only have a pair.
You always fold Aces in deep stack tournaments apart from in the two scenarios you mentioned?
I meant in the all in situations.
When I"m dealt aces - it"s not that often I have somebody go all in before, or after me, let alone more than one person do so. This is particularly true in deep stack tournaments as there are fewer people who would be so rash to do so when they have plenty of chips spare.
One relevant thing I forgot though is obviously at later stages of the tournament then their stack sizes are obviously just as important as yours.
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One thing I forgot to take into consideration before. If I am, or think I am, the best player at the table I will most likely fold in all these situations, as I know I can outplay my opponents. Truth is, I am just not that good, so I have got to take these opportunities to build a big stack.
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One thing I forgot to take into consideration before. If I am, or think I am, the best player at the table I will most likely fold in all these situations, as I know I can outplay my opponents. Truth is, I am just not that good, so I have got to take these opportunities to build a big stack.
But is it not better to be lucky than good? Being dealt aces when someone has gone all-in before you is an incredibly fortunate situation isn"t it? Being 80% to double through, for me anyway, is an opportunity not to be turned down. Even if I can out play everyone, how long will it take me to out play them to the point where I"ve accumulated the 20,000 from the table I could have won had I called with Aces in the first hand?
Why not call, win the 20,000 and then out play them also? If you lose you lose, but I"m sure that"s too good an opportunity to pass up. We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
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I call every time.
A, There is a all in from mid position,folds round to you ------ you fold or call and why ?
I"m ahead. This a great opportunity to double up. This means that later on you are not at risk at going out when you make a bad play and get your money in behind or get outdrawn. You can also use the chips to win more chips. You are going to have to win a LOT of races to cash in a WSOP. Either that, or you have to be Eck. We aren"t all Eck.
B, There is a raise and a re-raise all in, folds round to you -------you fold or call and why ?
Same as above.
C, There is a raise re-raise a re-raise all in and a call, folds round to you ---- you fold or call and why ?
Same as above.
Now KK is a different matter...
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... We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
er, yes ............ but,
this comes back to the point - patience is the key.
i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.
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Why not call, win the 20,000 and then out play them also? If you lose you lose, but I"m sure that"s too good an opportunity to pass up. We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
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i agree totally..with those chips at your disposal it will be easier to outplay people as they won"t want to get involved.
another scenario though..what if it was the payout bubble and you were calling for your tournament life...
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another scenario though..what if it was the payout bubble and you were calling for your tournament life...
Phil Helmuth-stylee instacall. Why? Because your opponent"s ranges are much wider and they will be sticking their chips in assuming they have fold equity.
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Ok so for those who would fold AA pre flop in scenario 1, I assume without an all in by the time it gets to you, you reraise 100% with this hand or are you flatting to either keep the pot small or to set mine with AA?
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... We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
er, yes ............ but,
this comes back to the point - patience is the key.
i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.
The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.
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... We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
er, yes ............ but,
this comes back to the point - patience is the key.
i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.
The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.
The point of a deep stack is that you don"t have to risk all your money in one pot.
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... We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
er, yes ............ but,
this comes back to the point - patience is the key.
i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.
The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.
The point of a deep stack is that you don"t have to risk all your money in one pot.
You don"t have to exactly, you can wait for the good opportunities and I peronsally think this qualifie. For me a risk is something that is likely to turn out badly.
I"m repeating myself now.
On a slight digression, if you did satellite into the WSOP main event, would your intention be just to try and cash or to try and actually win it?
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If you are at a table at the WSOP where there are multiple players pushing their stacks in the first level and you are folding AA, I dont fancy your chances for the tournament, unless of course you get moved to another table, where there is a bit more play. You have to consider that if there are these types of over- aggressive players at your table you arent going to get your opportunity to play much poker. Better to take them out, send a message to the table and accumulate a monster stack in relation to everyone else. I dont believe many professionals would fold AA preflop, in the first 2 scenarios, and have heard of professionals such as Phil Ivey going allin, first hand, blind. I guess hes doing it for fun or a bet, or just wants to send a message to the table.
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... We"ll have to agree to disagree possibly. ;)
er, yes ............ but,
this comes back to the point - patience is the key.
i.e. It doesn"t matter how long it takes as long as you"re still in the tournament.
The point of being patient though is to wait for a great spot to get all your money in, this for me constitutes a great spot.
The point of a deep stack is that you don"t have to risk all your money in one pot.
You don"t have to exactly, you can wait for the good opportunities and I peronsally think this qualifie. For me a risk is something that is likely to turn out badly.
I"m repeating myself now.
On a slight digression, if you did satellite into the WSOP main event, would your intention be just to try and cash or to try and actually win it?
Play each hand and each opponent as they come.
As for ambition I"d stick with the same one I had in the 2007 WSOP Razz...
(1) Don"t come last
(2) Make it to the end of level 1
(3) Make it to the dinner break
After that seems too much like planning too far in advance ;D
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If you are at a table at the WSOP where there are multiple players pushing their stacks in the first level and you are folding AA, I dont fancy your chances for the tournament,...
If they are playing like that I would expect them to take each other out and for me to be left with one player who overplays his hands to take chips off.
As for the top professionals:
Consider your EV for the hand,
Now consider that EV only matters if you play enough for the luck to even out.
The professionals are playing every year - I"m suspecting you"re not going to be.
So not only do I think that folding the AA is likely to carry a greater +EV than calling an all in with it - but I also think that you will never benefit from the +EV of playing it because you won"t play enough WSOP Main Events for the luck to even out (unless you get even luckier than being dealt them to start with and they actually hold up).
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Jon I agree with your short term approach ie. make it to first break, dinner etc. I mean you cannot win if you dont make the Final Table, and you cannot make the final Table unless you make the dinner break etc etc however as the blinds go up you have to be willing to gamble to achieve this. That means if I get a good spot to make chips i"ll take it because that is how I am going to be able to survive. I cannot survive by folding my way through the tournament, as you well know.
If you want to have a great WSOP experience by all means fold AA in the first level.
If you are there to really go for it and try to go deep then I have to say call.
ps congrats on your Razz result, that must have been an awesome experience
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... as the blinds go up you have to be willing to gamble to achieve this. That means if I get a good spot to make chips i"ll take it because that is how I am going to be able to survive. I cannot survive by folding my way through the tournament, as you well know.
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... and as the blinds go up, I"ll take more of a risk. But you don"t have to gamble with all your chips every time.
That said, as the Razz showed - I"m better with limit.
What are the chances they could change the main event to limit, just for me?
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Ok so for those who would fold AA pre flop in scenario 1, I assume without an all in by the time it gets to you, you reraise 100% with this hand or are you flatting to either keep the pot small or to set mine with AA?
Moving the analysis on.
so if it isn"t raised all in before you.
What are the different scenarios for you pre flop.
Not just scenario 1, when would you raise and when would you call - what are your aims with this hand?
(first hand so completely unknown how your opponents will play)
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My aim with AA is the exact scenarios at the start to get all/or as many as possible of the chips in pre flop when I know i am ahead.
What other aim can u have with the best hand?
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The blinds are 50-100, you have 20,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand
You"re dealt aces.
(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you
Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?
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The blinds are 50-100, you have 10,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand
You"re dealt aces.
(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you
Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?
You start with 20,000 in the main event don"t you?
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The blinds are 50-100, you have 10,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand
You"re dealt aces.
(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you
Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?
You start with 20,000 in the main event don"t you?
oh yeah :)
It did seem a little short
Fixed it now
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For what it"s worth (I"m almost scared to respond), in scenarios A and B I"m calling, and in scenario C I"m probably folding.
In scenario C I don"t see the point of risking it all against 2 other players in the first level with 5 cards to come. It is, after-all, only a pair, admittedly the best preflop hand but things can change rapidly, especially with two other players in the same hand.
I have to admit to having folded aces preflop on 2 occasions. One to 3 all ins before me and one to 4 all ins before me - both times I would have lost.
Right, I"ll go take cover.... :D
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Im pretty sure im not folding aces pre flop, if i bust then i bust and theres always another tournament.
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The blinds are 50-100, you have 10,000 chips (2 hour clock?) First hand
You"re dealt aces.
(a) You have a raise to 300 before you (with or without a call)
(b) You have a raise to 300 and a reraise to 800 before you
Do you call or raise?
If you raise, how much do you raise to?
You start with 20,000 in the main event don"t you?
oh yeah :)
It did seem a little short
Fixed it now
Fold, poker is just way too risky. ;)
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Ok so for those who would fold AA pre flop in scenario 1, I assume without an all in by the time it gets to you, you reraise 100% with this hand or are you flatting to either keep the pot small or to set mine with AA?
Moving the analysis on.
so if it isn"t raised all in before you.
What are the different scenarios for you pre flop.
Not just scenario 1, when would you raise and when would you call - what are your aims with this hand?
(first hand so completely unknown how your opponents will play)
Early on in a deep-stack event, I think I might be looking to re-raise all-in with AA. There are enough people who"ll call with KK, QQ and even far worse hands.
It didn"t used to be my thinking, but after a number of these threads and discussions with players - I think I"m liking this line now.
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just wondering..to the people who are going along the lines of folding..is that due to past(bad) experiences as well as the debate of positive/negative ev.
just that going into the irish national i had a lot of bad beats online, therefore found myself, especially in the middle part of the tournament fastplaying big hands.
so maybe form influences all these decisions
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Scenario 1 and 2 are definite calls for me, scenario 3 is a fold as I don"t fancy risking a deepstack tournament on a coin flip at an early stage.
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Scenario 1 and 2 are definite calls for me, scenario 3 is a fold as I don"t fancy risking a deepstack tournament on a coin flip at an early stage.
My thoughts as well - the more opponents you"re up against, the more the percentages go down....
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but senario 3 is only a coinflip for u, u still have the best hand by quite some way but in any case senario 3 is very unlikely to play out. This early on in the tournament and in pretty much any tourny your not going to get 3 other people shoving in with suited connectors. Whatever they have your still going to have 50 percent equity in a pot your gettin 4 to 1 odds to call or whatever? how can you fold?
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
You have AA on the button and are delighted, and a player in early position who has you covered goes all-in.
You surely call, don"t you? Even though you have no fold equity and if you lose, you"re out. What about if Billy Big Stack is sitting in the BB, and he has both of you covered easily and does like a good call...
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only two occasions when I would ever fold AA preflop...
1. early in deepstack tourney with 2 all ins ahead of me.
2. when big stack near the bubble in a satellite
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
You have AA on the button and are delighted, and a player in early position who has you covered goes all-in.
You surely call, don"t you?
Definitely I call. At that point I"d call if two or more players had gone all in.
My point is, why risk your tournament life so early in a tourney against 2 other players on what"s little more than a coin flip ? Fine for all these pros that either can afford to go off and enter another tournie or, probably more accurately, have their sponsors pay their entry in another tournie, but for the mere mortals amongst us I"d want more play out of my entry fee.
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
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That"s the difference.
If you can lose 200 big blinds preflop whilst only holding one pair then I"m folding*
*there are always exceptions
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
You have AA on the button and are delighted, and a player in early position who has you covered goes all-in.
You surely call, don"t you?
Definitely I call. At that point I"d call if two or more players had gone all in.
My point is, why risk your tournament life so early in a tourney against 2 other players on what"s little more than a coin flip ? Fine for all these pros that either can afford to go off and enter another tournie or, probably more accurately, have their sponsors pay their entry in another tournie, but for the mere mortals amongst us I"d want more play out of my entry fee.
So effectively you"re playing scared?
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
...
That"s the difference.
If you can lose 200 big blinds preflop whilst only holding one pair then I"m folding*
*there are always exceptions
The fact you"re short should make you more likely to play them, as you"re unlikely to find yourself in a better situation.
OK - let"s assume you have an average stack, or a larger than average stack. Does that affect your decision?
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
You have AA on the button and are delighted, and a player in early position who has you covered goes all-in.
You surely call, don"t you?
Definitely I call. At that point I"d call if two or more players had gone all in.
My point is, why risk your tournament life so early in a tourney against 2 other players on what"s little more than a coin flip ? Fine for all these pros that either can afford to go off and enter another tournie or, probably more accurately, have their sponsors pay their entry in another tournie, but for the mere mortals amongst us I"d want more play out of my entry fee.
So effectively you"re playing scared?
Not so sure I"m playing scared, but I"d prefer to play poker than one hand of bingo.
If I was at a table full of poker pros I might well call in scenario C, as I wouldn"t be as confident about playing poker with them and being competitive. If I win then I"ve got a buffer. From my point of view, calling in scenario C is playing scared.
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
...
That"s the difference.
If you can lose 200 big blinds preflop whilst only holding one pair then I"m folding*
*there are always exceptions
The fact you"re short should make you more likely to play them, as you"re unlikely to find yourself in a better situation.
OK - let"s assume you have an average stack, or a larger than average stack. Does that affect your decision?
Exactly - if I"m short stacked, obviously I"m not folding.
But if I have the average or larger than average stack (in a deep stacked tournament) then generally I"m happy to fold to another deep stacked player.
But on the bubble then I"m looking at a lot more factors.
My stack, their stack, the average stack, the clock etc.
I would also take into account the money - 99% of all tournaments, this will have a 0.001% influence on the outcome. But if I"ve freerolled into the WSOP Main Event then I"d be more keen than normal to not go out on the bubble.
NB: I also agree with Haworth"s point that shoving preflop and hoping it holds up isn"t what I"d enter any tournament for.
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NB: I also agree with Haworth"s point that shoving preflop and hoping it holds up isn"t what I"d enter any tournament for.
Unfortunately, that"s the nature of the NLHE beast. You will at some stage have at least half your stack in the middle racing or at least hoping your hand holds up against a weaker starting hand. Often the chips will go in pre-flop.
But if I have the average or larger than average stack (in a deep stacked tournament) then generally I"m happy to fold to another deep stacked player
With AA pre-flop in a tournament that"s not a satellite?
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quote from: Jon the Hat
;D ;D
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
You have AA on the button and are delighted, and a player in early position who has you covered goes all-in.
You surely call, don"t you? Even though you have no fold equity and if you lose, you"re out. What about if Billy Big Stack is sitting in the BB, and he has both of you covered easily and does like a good call...
Blinds are 1500 - 3000 with an ante of 400
There are 668 players left - 2 off the money
You freerolled the entry and expenses
You have 432,000 chips
Chip daddy has 630,000 chips
Short stack has 18,000 chips
short stack goes all in
Chip daddy raises all in
you have AA on the button
If you do nothing for half an hour or so you will still be deep stacked, with a guaranteed $21,000 profit for the trip.
If you call and go out you"ve had a great trip and a great experience.
Do you call?
Does the great experience mean that much to you?
Does $21,000 mean so little to you?
If you call and win you"re one of the WSOP Main Event chip leaders (pretty cool) but you"ve still got 666 players to beat - are you so confident in your own ability that you expect to not lose your lead?
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No brainer, bye bye aces.
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For those that are folding here, how about this scenario:
Later in the tournament, not too far from the bubble (cash bubble, final table bubble, whatever) - and you are short.
You have AA on the button and are delighted, and a player in early position who has you covered goes all-in.
You surely call, don"t you? Even though you have no fold equity and if you lose, you"re out. What about if Billy Big Stack is sitting in the BB, and he has both of you covered easily and does like a good call...
Blinds are 1500 - 3000 with an ante of 400
There are 668 players left - 2 off the money
You freerolled the entry and expenses
You have 432,000 chips
Chip daddy has 630,000 chips
Short stack has 18,000 chips
short stack goes all in
Chip daddy raises all in
you have AA on the button
If you do nothing for half an hour or so you will still be deep stacked, with a guaranteed $21,000 profit for the trip.
If you call and go out you"ve had a great trip and a great experience.
Do you call?
Does the great experience mean that much to you?
Does $21,000 mean so little to you?
If you call and win you"re one of the WSOP Main Event chip leaders (pretty cool) but you"ve still got 666 players to beat - are you so confident in your own ability that you expect to not lose your lead?
This scenario is VERY different to the original post isn"t it?
You "only" have to negotiate a couple of places, and have a stack that you can do this with, expecting others to bust out before you.
Surviving the first hand/level/hour/day at the WSOP ME means nothing in terms of a ROI. Folding that hand guarantees you nothing. The benefit of doubling up there is important. It doesn"t win you anything of course, but it certainly makes your life easier and provides you with a platform from which to build.
There is no way that folding AA early on to the shove of another player makes sense to me. KK yes, but that"s because of the range I put the other player on, and I"m often (always?) behind. In this scenario (from the OP), I"m ALWAYS ahead (unless the other player has AA also - and then I"ll hit my flush anyway).
I know that I don"t have an "edge" over the rest of the field that I can afford to fold aces here.
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...
But if I have the average or larger than average stack (in a deep stacked tournament) then generally I"m happy to fold to another deep stacked player
With AA pre-flop in a tournament that"s not a satellite?
I was answering this question
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WOW guys, good feedback.
Interesting to see so many views on some fold for different reasons and some call for different reasons.
Prob none of us will be 100% sure till it hapens.
Then again think some replies are 100% sure.
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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I"m going to try to remember who replied what so"s I can shove in with 72o in the opening hand of next year"s Main Event... ;)
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I"m going to try to remember who replied what so"s I can shove in with 72o in the opening hand of next year"s Main Event... ;)
I"ll call with AA. Probably fold KK though.
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What an excellent question and it is interesting to see how different people would tackle these scenarios.My feeling is that i would push all-in every time but it has certainly made me think.