Amateur Poker Association & Tour
Poker Forum => Strategy => Topic started by: noble1 on December 15, 2008, 18:09:31 PM
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Seat 1: lubmynuts ($2,700) Posts big blind $30
Seat 2: koke27 ($3,490)
Seat 3: phtylphtalat275 ($3,265)
Seat 4: Robbieoz ($5,710)
Seat 5: popp6161 ($2,835)
Seat 6: Annette_15 ($6,055)
Seat 8: drtydingo ($2,135) Dealer
Posts small blind $15
Seat 9: kleath ($3,810) Posts small blind $15
Dealt to Robbieoz
9s :3h:
FOLD koke27
FOLD phtylphtalat275
FOLD Robbieoz
CALL popp6161, $30
RAISE Annette_15, to $120
FOLD drtydingo
FOLD kleath
FOLD lubmynuts
CALL popp6161, $90
Flop: :2s: tc 8s (Pot: $285)
CHECK popp6161
BET Annette_15, $210
CALL popp6161, $210
Turn: :2s: tc 8s js (Pot: $705)
CHECK popp6161
CHECK Annette_15
River: :2s: tc 8s js qd (Pot: $705)
CHECK popp6161
BET Annette_15, $210
RAISE popp6161, to $420
CALL Annette_15, $210
Showdown:
SHOWS popp6161
:2c: :2h:
SHOWS Annette_15
qs qc
Annette_15 wins the pot of $1,545 with three of a kind, Queens
my question is how would you guys proceed with either hand ? especially 22....
This caused some debate at the table afterwards,as to how to play this situation , texture of flop/board on the turn,then the river !!!
But i do think annette played position well , dont you ?
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I think in the end they both did well to keep the pot relatively small.
Obviously the q on the end is a bit of a cooler.
I"ve no idea what annette plays like at cash but we have all seen
her agression in tourneys.
If i was popp i"d be more aggressive on the flop and turn,
and just called on the river. The raise looks just like throwing
money away, its way too small for anyone to fold with any showdown
value.
Annette"s play looks good to me apart from the river. I would have checked.
I think this is the kind of hand where having some data on your opponent
could make a massive difference.
Popp"s starting hands could easily be 22, 88, 99, tt, t9s etc... with annette on your left.
And Annette could could have anything against a limper in postion.
Out of interest whats she like at cash ? Is she just as agressive ?
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Umm okay, I fear you not scrutiny :D. Obvioulsy never played at this level so I cant really add that much insight but i can but share my opinion!
Overal there seems to be a lot of hesitation in this hand and a lack of aggression which seems suprising for such high stakes.
Preflop, everything seems fine, standard raise and at worst a cheeky call with dueces without position.
Flop, imo if your entering an open raised pot with dueces you cannot hit your set and check OOP just to check call flop and then check the turn, UNLESS you are 100% certain that she is going to cbet turn after your check and this is where your going to reraise and take the pot OR extract as much you possible can from the hand.
(Ok maybe initially I mistook hesitation for trappy play.)
Dont really want to consider anything after the turn just yet. Obviously you can tell i think the correct thing to do would"ve been check raise flop.
What do you think she would"ve have done if any other Jack appeared or a dead card turned over?
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Preflop, everything seems fine, standard raise and at worst a cheeky call with dueces without position.
Flop, imo if your entering an open raised pot with dueces you cannot hit your set and check OOP just to check call flop and then check the turn, UNLESS you are 100% certain that she is going to cbet turn after your check and this is where your going to reraise and take the pot OR extract as much you possible can from the hand.
good points Toppietwo , i agree that with hitting a set on 2 suited flop oop that check calling is spewy , although on a rainbow flop i might mix in a check call into my repertoire.
If popp6161 were to check raise is there argument that annette would be able to get away from an over pair?
Can anyone think of a reason to not limp calling raises oop with low pocket pairs?
yep sry guys it is a $216 mtt on tilt.
it is still early levels 15/30,and by an large pot size control is better unless there is a lot of sat players at the table then there can be un-controlled aggression.
popp6161 is pretty loose but not wild,annettes reputation proceeds her a lot but generally in the early levels of a freeze out mtt she is more solid than LAG.
The questions thrown up by the table afterwards were how if the set were to lead into or check raise on the flop,would the hand turned out very differently?.
Again on the turn is there anyone who thinks 22 should lead out??
The river i think annette played well, a good size value bet as any of popp6161 holdings that would be beating her would of bet out on the turn?
Does anyone think by check calling the flop the set loses control of the hand?
Would anyone play the river [22] differently, i"m intrested as to what others think because with the texture of the board and how it has been played upto that point is there any other valid play?
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from a purely amatuer point of view - with my set i"d have re raised on the flop after annette bet and a good bit, maybe to $1000 to out price any draws, there is flush draw and possible open ended or gut shot straight draws possible on the flop but i doubt annette would"ve folded her queens
turn is a scary flush possibilty but with the play as it was i"d maybe lead out for half the pot but again i"d imagine annette wouldve called to with 4 cards to a queen flush
if all this had panned out as i wouldve played it, come the river and the possible straight and with annettes pre flop bet she could easily have pocket 9"s or AK, i"d have checked and probably called annette"s small bet as the odds would be too tempting, certainly not raised it
but as it panned out i dont think either player made any mistakes
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i see the merits of check raising the flop LongshanksED but imo if you re-raise such a large amount you are losing value, if annette or any opponent were on a flush draw the set of twos are around 80% favourite,so surely a reraise to 560 ish offering 3 to 1 odds for the flush draw is better +ev? The re-raise to 1000 is pot committing yourself to the hand and against a weaker player this may get a donk all in or call,but the std of opponents in these mtts means that generally they are quite capable of getting away from 1 pair [and over pairs] especially so early and deep stacked.
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Ok if its an MTT that makes a lot more sense regardin the trappy play.
personally I dont think she"s going anywhere to a check raise with such a prem hand on that flop. I cant really think about anything else seriously atm until i get my head around the turn but will need to look at that again tomo when i can see straight! If you have any priors that would be good to look at, I get the feeling she"s been running popps over and he finally thinks he gots her!
With regards to the 22 river decision, popps has to accept defeat here imo and demonstrate the dicipline to himself to lay it down. Any other card then a J or a Q on the turn and I think she bets out and his creativity gets paid off unless she has a read on him (check call read???!) Damn I wish u recorded this so I could whatch it over and then whatch her recent video a few times
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annette played it perfectly (not too controversial to say that really) and got lucky. I really like her bet on the river (even though I dont fully understand it). The guy with the 22 played it poorly. lead the flop there for so many reasons....
1. you could get rearaised and then you are in valoo town
2. with 2 spades and 8 10 we have a drawy board. There are too many potential scare cards (one of which landed on the turn). When I say scare card, I mean scared about not getting value from my set.
3. check raising is probably not too bad (let the aggressor take the lead and all that...) but will most times kill the action and probably not build the pot you think it will.
check calling is awful and achieves nothing but keeping the pot small and in a perverse way annette now has control of the pot with the worse hand.
The check on the turn is possibly not the worst thing, given how badly the flop was played and what has now come on the turn, but to then min raise the river makes absolutely no sense to me and is a mandatory call for annette.
I remember playing a set this badly myself at the Walsall national last year and would like to think I"ve learnt from the experience.
PS...cant believe you folded the best hand noble1
PPS...4-6-0 formation FTW...you jammy scouse gits
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nice summary Swinebag22 , i like your thoughts on leading out with the set oop.I will put some thoughts on this later tomorrow but i"d like to see other APATers views on this before i do so, its not as a straight forward situation as may first appear if you analyze it.
annette played it perfectly (not too controversial to say that really) and got lucky. I really like her bet on the river (even though I dont fully understand it).
Lucky is a bit strong :) as Annette demonstrates the power of position if you look at it again.
The river bet makes sense if you play back in your mind any hand that is beating her on the turn will more than likely bet out on the turn,applying this logic of thinking you see why she value bets the river [and the amount] now apply that logic to what would check call the flop and check the turn and again check the river
and you can see how annette worked out villians likely holdings.
PS...cant believe you folded the best hand noble1
errr my image was slightly loose at this moment in the mtt as i had stacked only shortly before a opponent with KK with my power house 84 off suit which i had raised utg ;D needless to say i thought i better lay low for a couple of orbits lol...
PPS...4-6-0 formation FTW...you jammy scouse gits
what a great game ;D who needs strikers away from home against such poor opposition lol lol bring back sven lmao ;D
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Thanks noble1. Every poker test I"ve done has criticised my river play. I miss loads of value bets here. One of my new years resolutions is to improve my river play
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how did you finish in the end noble?
did you hoover annette"s chips up?
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Swinebag22 - The guy with the 22 played it poorly. lead the flop there for so many reasons....
I think you are spot on here,why? because against a strong player playing a strong hand out of position,i think you have to bet into solid players with the set, it will immediately let me know if they have a hand or not. If they call my bet, I know they hit top pair on the flop [nice if an ace or king has flopped]and I"ll be able to pot-commit them by the river. [by leading and sizing my bets on the turn in a way that will compel them to re-raise or at least call,i know i can extract even more on the river] I am looking from the turn onwards to try and pot commit them.
What will a strong TAG re-raise ? a higher set [not good]top pair strong kicker or an over pair prehaps,sometimes a strong flush draw with over cards.This also works against a strong LAG who will definitely re-raise a strong flush draw or at least represent one if he has position ;D
Now in this situation popp6161 has decided to slow play his set,if against a aggressive opponent [the type who give little thought and 3 barrel a lot] slow playing is a good choice imo,but OOP to a strong thinking player who realize that one pair is not a monster and have position like annette , it gave her the opportunity to check the turn [pot control,a chance to hit a Q flush for free,a 9 for a straight or a Queen for the higher set]
How many lower level players do you think would over value there hand here if they were playing in Annettes place and play it like they have the nuts??
This is a good example of the power of position,thought and simple pot size control.........in my opinion.
My friend has been playing on poker heaven today whilst i watched and a good example of a strong aggressive top pair man came up - The stacks are both similar sizes of 6000 ish, villian raises utg+2 3x100 everyone folds to my friend in the big blind with 55 he calls, FLOP - Kd-5s-9h rainbow , my mate was going to check call then check raise the turn , i explained to him that with him oop that the villian may be able to throw away his 1 pair to a check raise on the turn and that by leading we may be able to get him to over commit.So we lead out 350 chips the villian calls which means he"s most likely holding A-K or something with a king pre-flop.
The turn is where we try to pot-commit him , if we check, he bets and we re-raise, he may fold. Instead of scaring him off like that, we bet out 420 on the turn 7s, and if he re-raises, then we can go all-in or commit on the river. If he just calls, we can get him all-in at the river or at least extract more chips with a value bet.
Villian re-raises big to 1800 [he now has just over 1/3 his stack invested] my friend calls , the pot was around 5000 ish the river was another king ;D and my mate ships in his remaining stack and villian calls with AKo.........ship it............lol....
Situations and opponents are different but with thought you can maximise your good hands. Not for a second did villian think we were leading a set,he put us on a worse king ;D or a bluff ??? ???
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I really like that play with the set of 5"s when the board is rainbow. What do you do if there"s danger (draws)? Bet the cageebees out if it from the flop and just cut it down now or play the same way...hoping you stay ahead?
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I"d rarely slow play a set if there were any kind of draw.
Fastplaying it can (and often does) lead to you losing a massive pot when they stick around for their draw despite not having the odds - but at least you"re charging them for the risk they"re taking.
And more often than not it just wins you the pot there and then - and I"m happy with that.
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I really like that play with the set of 5"s when the board is rainbow. What do you do if there"s danger (draws)? Bet the cageebees out if it from the flop and just cut it down now or play the same way...hoping you stay ahead?
OOP against an unknown player [no reads] with a set on a draw heavy board , i mix it up with my normal std flop bet of 4/10 to 6/10 pot ish or i will check call and reassess the turn , if chips are plentiful you can check raise the flop or turn and put villian to the test] if you get to see the next card and it is dangerous and the opponent seems to like it then i have no problem folding [again situational decisions are hard without a hand example as there are so many different scenarios ..] Oh the power of position ;D it makes life so much easier in making decisions..
If you know the opponent and that they wont call draws at prohibitive odds then i would adjust accordingly and after leading the flop [they call] i would still lead out on the turn [trying to keep control of the pot]
If popp6161 had lead out on his flop and again strong on the turn , i think annette would of reluctantly folded [at this stage of mtt and blind to stack ratio]
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I"m going to post a hand where I had a set OOP from the £300 @ DTD. It"s an interesting hand for a number of reasons and generated a fair amount of discussion. I need to remember the details first, but will post it on here rather than starting a new thread.
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Tournament: Live £300 MTT @ DTD. 151 runners. 45-minute clock, 10,000 starting stack.
Level: Third level, blinds 75/150
The tournament"s been running for about 2 hours, and my image is fairly tight. I know a few players at the table, and the table"s fairly chatty - and there"s much mirth about me being tighter than Des's wallet at the bar. This have given me the opportunity to play a few hands "differently", especially at the early levels with the blinds as small as they are.
For the purpose of this hand everyone has around the 10K starting stack, except for the player to the right of me who has won a large pot from the player to my left leaving them with 13K and 7K respectively. I have about 12K and am UTG.
I look down at the monster that is :3d: :3h:. I throw in a raise, and make it 500 to go. Again, some comments around the table that I must have soooted aces to be playing from UTG.
UTG+1 is an older fella, a regular at DTD who I have played with a fair bit. I"d describe him as loose and not very good. I love to have him on my cash game table, as he loves to gamble and will commit without a great deal. He plays tournaments the same way.
He calls (and I"m not surprised).
It"s folded all the way round the table to the BB. He"s a young internet player. He wins a lot online, I know this because he"s told me so, repeatedly.
He calls.
Flop comes down:
kh 9c :3c:
The BB checks.
I"ve flopped my set, and I"m happy to see the king there as well, hoping that someone is playing AK or KQ or similar. Two clubs on the board, and vague straight draws, but pretty much an ideal flop for me.
I bet 1,200.
UTG+1 raises to 3,000.
BB calls.
What do I do now?
I put one of them on the flush draw and the other on at least a pair. The older gent now has about 3.5K back, and looks likes he"s happy to commit with his hand. The BB knows this and flat calls.
What should I be thinking now, and how would you play it (or how would you have played it differently up to now)?
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This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.
This is a tough spot and you must be thinking set over set.
Because of your tight image, people may be thinking that you can be taken off pots, even though you"ve raised UTG and led out. But the real problem is you are OOP and dont have a clue what you are up against, but the sequence of betting probably means you are up against a monster or a pair of monsters.
monsters you are beating
1. AA - It is possible that UTG + 1 may play this slowly thinking that you have a good hand as well and may keep betting into him. Its an unlikely holding for the BB though because he would surely raise preflop.
2. AKo - This is a more likely holding for the BB rather than UTG + 1 but he would probably 3 bet here pre flop (would he?)
3. 2 pair - would UTG + 1 call with K9??, BB may be the type to feel priced in and could possibly call with any of the 2 pair options, but overall 2 pair has to be furthest from your thoughts here
4. The FD - not really a monster (unless its ac kc), but as you say a strong possibility. I"d have expected a shove from UTG + 1 if he had this, though he could be thinking he is betting for value if he had the ac kc option.
monsters you are losing too
KK or 99 - KK is a possible holding for UTG + 1 but probably not the BB, whilst 99 is a strong possibility for either player, given the betting and stacks.
I actually wrote this next bit first before I wrote the stuff above it......
I"d probably shove em in here (not saying that is correct by a long way - its just what I"d do if I had this action
but having had this action and really thought about it, I"m tending to a fold for the simple reason that you have only committed 1700 and still have your starting stack to play with.
Coupled with the fact that you are probably up against at least 1, if not 2 monsters, the most likely being (given the betting) that you are crushed by a bigger set or a pot committed FD that could crush you.
Having said all that, and the fact that i"ve been thinking about this for 30 minutes, I"d still shove em in dreaming of a treble up and at least being able to say I was unlucky if i get set over set.
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More interested in what your plan was when you get the inevitable 2/3 callers and the flop comes with no 3 to be honest.
As played i ship the lot in right now if someone has 9h 9d , ks kc well ggnh etc but if i"m playing threes utg then no way im doing anything else here. Please don"t tell me you did anything else with c9k in the pot and 9k behind get it in and run good imo.
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I"m throwing the lot in on the flop too. I"d be surprised if either of them has a bigger set, but if they do...fair play, good game.
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i dont like small pocket pairs in early position and generally limp 50% off the time at a full table if i have a decent read on the other players, if i have a raise and a call or 2 i"ll then usually fold them pre flop
as you played it i"d have bet the same post flop and then shoved when its came back around to me but would be worried about the 99 - not so much of the KK as i"d imagine that would"ve ben re raised
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comments around the table that I must have soooted aces to be playing from UTG.
hahaha!!!!
This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.
snap, half the buyin and then snap again!
Anyway, everything seems fine to me right up until the BB call, the 33 raise given your image is great in imo, with that image I am happy with the pfr and the lead bet.
The BB call is where i would be concerned. I fear not the ol boy. We want the ol boys raise here and then a squeezey reraise from the internet player. Then i think we have an easier decision to make.
The call is either a lovely bluff call of strength or genuinely BB thinks he has us beat at this stage. Given that his an internet player and can probably scare a few ppl off with the call, i flat call and scare him back showing my armpits! Then look for a better reason to commit or get away dependant on the turn
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This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.
You"re more than good enough to play in this. The skill level (on the few tables I played on, and from what I"ve seen doing updates on these in the past) on the whole isn"t higher than the APAT events. There are some better players for sure, but there are a lot of poor players too.
This is a tough spot and you must be thinking set over set.
Wasn"t worried about a set to he honest. KK re-raises me pre, and if he"s got 99, then so be it. I thought I was definitely ahead on the flop.
Because of your tight image, people may be thinking that you can be taken off pots, even though you"ve raised UTG and led out. But the real problem is you are OOP and dont have a clue what you are up against, but the sequence of betting probably means you are up against a monster or a pair of monsters.
monsters you are beating
1. AA - It is possible that UTG + 1 may play this slowly thinking that you have a good hand as well and may keep betting into him. Its an unlikely holding for the BB though because he would surely raise preflop.
2. AKo - This is a more likely holding for the BB rather than UTG + 1 but he would probably 3 bet here pre flop (would he?)
3. 2 pair - would UTG + 1 call with K9??, BB may be the type to feel priced in and could possibly call with any of the 2 pair options, but overall 2 pair has to be furthest from your thoughts here
I thought that one of them could definitely have two pair here. Which would be K9 as any other holding is unlikely.
4. The FD - not really a monster (unless its ac kc), but as you say a strong possibility. I"d have expected a shove from UTG + 1 if he had this, though he could be thinking he is betting for value if he had the ac kc option.
monsters you are losing too
KK or 99 - KK is a possible holding for UTG + 1 but probably not the BB, whilst 99 is a strong possibility for either player, given the betting and stacks.
I actually wrote this next bit first before I wrote the stuff above it......
I"d probably shove em in here (not saying that is correct by a long way - its just what I"d do if I had this action
but having had this action and really thought about it, I"m tending to a fold for the simple reason that you have only committed 1700 and still have your starting stack to play with.
Coupled with the fact that you are probably up against at least 1, if not 2 monsters, the most likely being (given the betting) that you are crushed by a bigger set or a pot committed FD that could crush you.
Having said all that, and the fact that i"ve been thinking about this for 30 minutes, I"d still shove em in dreaming of a treble up and at least being able to say I was unlucky if i get set over set.
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comments around the table that I must have soooted aces to be playing from UTG.
hahaha!!!!
This is played at a buyin, well above my level so am pretty inexperienced here, but I"ll have a go.
snap, half the buyin and then snap again!
Anyway, everything seems fine to me right up until the BB call, the 33 raise given your image is great in imo, with that image I am happy with the pfr and the lead bet.
The BB call is where i would be concerned. I fear not the ol boy. We want the ol boys raise here and then a squeezey reraise from the internet player. Then i think we have an easier decision to make.
The call is either a lovely bluff call of strength or genuinely BB thinks he has us beat at this stage. Given that his an internet player and can probably scare a few ppl off with the call, i flat call and scare him back showing my armpits! Then look for a better reason to commit or get away dependant on the turn
Very, very close to my thinking in this hand. In fact, are we related?
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nearly but not quite! I"m related to the geeky internet player, lol!
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waiting with baited breath
did you win or did the old boy suck out with a flush draw?
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Hehe. Going to wait for a few more opinions before I reveal what I was thinking, and how the hand played out.
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nice post Kinboshi
ok as played and with your reads
loose guy - could of rr a flush draw AXc KXc ,top pair KQo KJo KTo and seems he is loose i"d add K9 in there 99 is a possibility but i"d expect a bigger raise to deter flush draws and isolate you [KK could be in range but doubtful]
Big blind - if he is good? then check smooth calling 99 after you have lead out and seen a rr is spewy so i"d discount that from his range and KK,if he is any good he wouldnt just call a flush draw oop AXc odds are only 1.85 so AKc KQc KJc is the type of hand i"d expect to see here,and he smoothed to see how you react due to your lead
you have 10,300 @ 75/150 so you have fold equity but due to the action and reads we have 2 choices.
1 call
2 raise
utg+1 has 3500 left behind and has basically committed himself having put in 1/2 his stack
BB internet whizz kid has 7000 behind
if we call and a club comes we will have 7300 chips left and plenty of play left,if no club comes i dare say utg+1 will shove in rest of his stack anyhows but will we extract any more chips from BB ?
if we re-raise we will definitely have utg+1 coming in and i"d say about 35% chance that the BB will.
with it being so early and deep i"m torn between the safe option and re-raising.
re-raising here with 2 intrested parties @ this level to me is just a little bit to early to gamble with a %50 edge on 2 villians.
So if i was you Kinboshi i"d call and re-evaluate on the turn to see the BB action,if there is a club and he leads out it is a easy fold,likewise if no club and he leads out then i"d have to put 99 in his range now and i"d make a reluctant fold.If he checks the turn if a club comes or not i would lead to isolate utg+1 and expect BB to fold if we ship in our stack and if utg+1 does have the flush we have the odds to pair the board for a boat.
intresting situation , i luv it ;D
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Ok - I"m actually off out now (down to London Village to see New Model Army at The Astoria ;D), but will be back on tomorrow to carry on the discussion from my point of view.
Some great responses though.
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Thanks for quoting my post, but then not commenting on it ???
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Thanks for quoting my post, but then not commenting on it ???
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Only joking. I will comment on it in detail, but I didn"t have the time to do it justice and it also impacts on what I was thinking at the time. I will definitely be commenting on it tomorrow.
;)
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Thanks for quoting my post, but then not commenting on it ???
::) :D :D
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I will definitely be commenting on it tomorrow.
;)
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I will definitely be commenting on it tomorrow.
;)
I need some sleep first, and I"m still drunk.
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Kinboshi - how would you play it (or how would you have played it differently up to now)?
Not to much wrong Kinboshi,playing 33 utg with your image is ok by me as they wont expect you to be playing this hand utg.
The raise utg if i were playing in a deep stack would be x 2.5bb and on the flop with the king i would lead out 2/3 pot rather than the 3/4 you did,with the texture of the flop,2 callers and your position i may of check called flop and re-evaluated on the turn,
but both leading and check calling are ok.
If it had only been loose guy calling then i"d definitely check call him flop and plan to pot commit him on the turn.
It still intrigues me as to what the BB has,is he good?? if it turns out he has KK or 99 and he 1.. didnt reraise oop KK i"m sick 2.. if he has 99 then i dont like the way he has played it in the position he is in. If it turns out he has played AKo KQo KJo or TJcc then good internet player becomes ATM in my notes ;D
If it turns out he has 99 and he check raises the turn then i would be sick....
But my logic says if he is good oop with either hand he would not play this situation like this, i await to find out.......If anyone has a higher set then loose guy is the most likely but is range here is so wide and if i could isolate him on the turn and have 5000 chips left if my read was wrong,then thats not a bad gamble..
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Been away for 3 days, and not had chance to check the Forum, but really enjoyed this thread, particularly the reference to the mighty Blues snatching victory from the richest club in the world! ;D
By the way Daniel, for what its worth I think you did pretty well not to go broke on this hand, just shows how difficult oop play is.
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Young lad [tells everyone he is good] = Weak Donkey lmao
out of intrest,did the river pair the board ?
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Young lad [tells everyone he is good] = Weak Donkey lmao
out of intrest,did the river pair the board ?
No pair on the board, so the flush held up. The young lad got a broken nose, a thick lip and two black eyes from where the deck continued to smack him in the face for the next few hours. He didn"t cash though, and it seemed his luck only took him so far.
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what a surprise that he did not cash ;D
is the std this bad generally in the £300 Kinboshi ?? or is this a isolated incident?
[no concept of position,odds,hand values,awareness of opponents possible holdings]
the lad could be winning wsop 09 , you better keep an eye on this precocious talent.
LMAO
http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-articles/can-poker-be-taught-3688619
but yes you played it correctly by re-evaluating on the turn card,this shove it in mentality is something i see a lot in the online sunday majors by the satt players,sadly in a deep stack this strategy in early levels leads to many early exits.
If they happen to double up they rarely hang onto there chips for long enough to take these mtts down..
What surprises me is that if everyone railed a known ranked player such as Pearljammer,JohhnyBax,Sn8wman,AJKHoosier1,moorman1,djk123,brsavage, P0KERPR033,number1pen,sheets,The d ry,gboro780 are all imo excellent mtt players and if you ever get a chance to watch them,you"ll be amazed at the patience and consistency these guys show and you can learn so much.
good fold Kinboshi
regards
noble
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There are a mix of all sorts to be honest. Quite a few very decent players amongst the field, but also some terrible ones.
In general, the standard of live play is far lower than online from my experience.
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Sigh
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Sigh
Is that a sigh that I"m one of the bad players? :D
You don"t like the way I played it at all?
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Well done on losing the minimum. i can see why you called there and the reasoning seems fine.
In my analysis, I gave the players far too much credit (when it seems they were a couple of donkeys) and came up with a fold on the flop, but in reality, if i was in that situation, I couldn"t fold (though I"d have check/folded on the turn if I"d have called)
I would have probably still shoved on the flop.
If anything this hand demonstrates the power of position and solid reads.
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Sigh
Is that a sigh that I"m one of the bad players? :D
You don"t like the way I played it at all?
No I don"t like it at all I am shoving here 100% of the time. No way i am putting half my stack in knowing i have the best hand then be prepared to fold if a "scare" card comes. I would give the others the decision to make and obviously fade the club as well. Would be interested to hear Flushy/Triggs views..stick it up on blonde and see what gets said please.
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Did you tell the lad you had 3"s when you asked if he wuda called a shove on flop? lol!!
Anyway, regardless I think your instincts were right and would"ve played it in a similar way, if not exactly the same.
If I was feeling tricky,would"ve donated a snidey bigger flush representation with a pitiful (max 25% pot) lead to his check on turn, following on with our earlier strong flop call, which i would have hoped the net player at least would remember and fear a bigger flush, pos even nut f/draw.
Its a very risky and pointless manouvre in most circumstances but its very confusing for BB. Old boy is still riasing tho
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Sigh
Is that a sigh that I"m one of the bad players? :D
You don"t like the way I played it at all?
No I don"t like it at all I am shoving here 100% of the time. No way i am putting half my stack in knowing i have the best hand then be prepared to fold if a "scare" card comes. I would give the others the decision to make and obviously fade the club as well. Would be interested to hear Flushy/Triggs views..stick it up on blonde and see what gets said please.
Yeah, I will. EvilPie was on the table and he said that he"d have pushed as well.
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i can see the argument for shoving the flop,but after the action i"d feel that if any 2 of my opponents are on a flush draw they are not going to fold.
Although calling the flop re-raise leaves us with 8500 chips [56bb - 10000 chips start] with 45 min levels this only being level 3,we still have enough to build back up.
If this was in the later levels and we was down in the 10 to 25bb stack size area then i"d be all for shoving in this situation.
Because online mtts mainly start 75bb 15 min levels i think a lot of players cant adapt patience wise to a slower deeper structure and try to accumulate to quickly and push there 50% edges one to many times in the belief that they have a greater chance of going deeper.
Even with 56bb left it is not winning big pots with big hands that is the goal but trying to win a ton of small and medium pots.
In mtts like these you are rewarded for how long you last, rather than for how many chips you accumulate.In cash game poker, the chips you save by folding are just as valuable as the chips you win by playing this applies to tournament play as well !! the chips you save are actually more valuable.This concept took me a while to learn whilst i experimented with my mtt strategy and generally through trial and error in my opinion there was no real benefit to gambling early on.There are no concrete rules as to how fast you should try to build your stack in the early going, but the main thing is you don"t want to do is to go broke by playing too loose or put everything on the line in the 3rd level with a %50 edge,there are many other ways to accumulate chips and position is key in picking up all these small to medium pots.The crucial levels dont begin till the 5th onwards imo be that in a slow or fast structured mtt.Use your skills of reading players and betting patterns,do you sense weakness? then take the pot away from them,avoid showdowns as much as you possibly can [you will see some] steal blinds,trust your reads and your image if its tight 3 bet a medium stack gain chips there.
The people who take early leads in mtts rarely win FACT..So why the mentality to accumulate early or push fine edges??? i find that just by trying to out last all my opponents get into the cash positions or near the bubble then my chances of getting deeper increase as i open my game up then,often one double up at this stage sends you soaring up the leader board.
This is just my opinion ;D
regards
noble
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please stop, what you are suggesting is to ignore the maths and hand away a huge edge. I haven"t stuck this through stove but if you do we will be a big favourite against a very small range.
If it is set over set we take our punishment but to suggest you can hand away half your chips because you think you have an edge over the field and can continue to small ball your way from there is frankly not on.
You have the opportunity to get a 30k stack at 75/150 which will definitely allow you to do what you suggest and play a lot of pots in position and pressurize others.
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yes sometimes in mtts you ignore maths,the long term variance view you get in cash games is ok you can replenish your stack whenever you like.
In a mtt with a fast structure it is a crap shoot and a lot of the skill in poker is taken away,you are forced to make stands with marginal holdings and maths and equity play a part.
In slow deep structures,if you are skillful there is no need to take small even shot edges early on,you have time to pick your spots and play poker.Alas there are still people who have no clue how to adjust to a slower structure and they still employ speed play techniques , the concept of survival escapes them,these players are usually lacking in the poker skills compartment and use ""mathematical edges"" as an excuse for shoving in situations that if they had any player or hand reading ability they would be able to get away from..
In todays poker world poker players are bombarded with books about the mathematics and how ""important"" it is , M zones ,pot odds, equity,implied odds or fold equity they are only a small part of your poker skills,the important skills like patience , people/hand reading and the psychological aspect are hardly touched upon.
As patience factors in mtts get higher the skill levels rise because players have more time to be selective in the pots they enter and to be flexible about the way they choose to play their hands,or am i wrong in thinking that ????
There is no need to pokerstove , a set versus two opponents 1 [loose] on top pair,2 pair,poss-99,poss flush draw Ax, the other [young lad] on a flush draw with a piece of sorts of the flop,99 not discounted is on average around %50 at best with 2 cards to come. is this a huge edge? it is if you think your opponents are good enough to fold or at least one of them,then your edge is %70 + , but the way the action unfolded in Kinboshis situation suggested they were not going to fold on the flop,but i would of been interested if young lad had missed his club on the turn if he would of called all his stack then [if he were to check turn then i would discount 99 from his range],so with the point of view of calling the flop and re-evaluating the turn, if there is no club then shove to isolate the loose player is the optimum play , 4 times out of 5 it may well work !!!! the 1 time it does not and the club comes you survive with 56bb and a good chance to build back up,young donkey is still at the table ;D theres hope yet..
If young lad calls our shove on the turn he is getting odds of 3 to 1 hmmm but now we have an big edge !!!
So which way has the best edge,shove flop or shove turn if no club??
remember we had no real read on young lad except that he said himself that he was good :D
with it being so early in the mtt , no antes in play yet and a good structure time wise and opponent stacks at this stage mostly being of a similar size for me i would be comfortable in finding other situations to gain chips.
Some players are only comfortable when they amass large stacks early [thats ok,they play to there style] but i am ok short, medium or large stacked,i have had plenty of practice at all 3..I just feel that to be consistent in mtts you need a good all round game and it would not feel right to me to tell everyone to shove bottom set on a flop OOP with little info,when its something i would not do myself.I prefer to get my chips in on the turn and river when i have more info to work on.
Each to there own as they say Eck
edit - done pokerstove out of interest ,
board - 3c Kd 9c
Kinboshi - 3d3h - 54.643%
loose guy - 99,AKs,KJs+,K9s,AKo,KJo+,K9o - 12.729%
young lad - 99,AKs,KQs,JTs - 32.628%
turn with club - take away 99 from young lads range and put him on flush
board - 3c Kd 9c 7c
Kinboshi - 3d3h - 17.778%
loose guy - 99,AKs,KJs+,K9s,AKo,KJo+,K9o - 11.270%
young lad - JcTc - 70.952%
turn with no club , discount 99 from YL range if he checks again put him on FD
board - 3c Kd 9c 6s
Kinboshi - 3d3h - 70.159%
loose guy - 99,AKs,KJs+,K9s,AKo,KJo+,K9o - 7.460%
young lad - JcTc - 22.381% best flush draw hand on this board if it is KQcc or ATcc
then his percentages are 18% and 16% with these type of draw hands and 3d3h increases to around 76%
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I bow to your superior knowledge and obvious level of skills that is so great that you can pass such a clear edge and continue to dominate a table. I clearly have no idea how to play a slow deep stacked structure and I use the fundamental maths as a crutch to hold up my weak and entirely flawed approach to the game.
I obviously have no patience, people/hand reading skills or whatever else you suggest makes you such a skilfull player. I think a skill in this game is keeping decisions easy call and you are potentially folding the turn. There is a 9k pot out there and we have about that behind. If you accept we are stacking off if no club comes then i see no benefit in playing streets as we are too shallow compared to the pot. I want that pot it and if mateyboy wants to get all his chips in with the hope of hitting his draw then good luck to him, how happy do you think he is going to be calling without the nut draw?
I suppose this must make me a terrible player but hey ho it seems to work as i can"t recall too many losing months over the last few years since i started.
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like i said eck, each to there own, we have different opinions on a situation.
[i think you read my post whilst i edited it with the additional parts that you may of missed]
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I know there is a lot of people in favour of the all in on the flop,the pot size is enticing
and it could be a ""play it big or go home moment""..
This thread imo has turned into a great one and if anything confirms that position is key in poker.
My final last gasp attempt to convert anyone in the all in flop camp is this -
[even just one person]
Sometimes in deep stack mtts you need to combine a good read [sometimes no reads]with caution, aggression, and patience.
Kinboshi had a good read on utg+1 and i think nearly everyone who replied to his post agreed on his hand range being wide.
The fly in the ointment was the Big Blind,if i had been in Kinboshis seat at the time to be honest my initial thought after the action on the flop is passed back round to me would to be re-raise and isolate the utg+1 who has pot committed himself,but sometimes i do think about the std of my opponents in the pot with me,how do they perceive me and what hand do they think i have,what have they got etc etc.
After reading Kinboshis first post,frankly i could not pin point a hand range on the big blind which made sense given his position in the hand and with the action which has unfolded in front of him and that he was good? [his own opinion]. Add to this that Kinboshi has a tight image and has raised utg and put in a strong bet with 2 callers.To me this screamed bad player, nothing made sense for a ""good player"" to play in that position,the board,the action and to smooth call a re-raise with Kinboshi still to act after leading out utg with such a tight image??
My initial thought of re-raising on the flop now didnt look as straight forward,what on earth is that chump doing oop in the big blind?
Now my thoughts were something like - this player is bad,he ls not a thinking player what so ever,i could not discount 99 totally but i thought flush draw more likely with some sort of connection to flop [top pair flush draw or inside straight with a flush draw]in which that chump had fallen in love with,so my range for him was narrowed to something like AKcc KQcc TJcc 99..
Now i thought what would i do in this situation -
the pot stands at 8775 with us still to act.
we had 12000 chips initially and so far we have only invested 1700
it is still in the early stages 75/150 no antes 10000 chip start, 45 min levels
If we were to re-raise or go all in to isolate utg+1 would the big blind fold?
The chump has most likely called a flush draw oop at odds of 1.9 so it stands to reason in my opinion that he his going to call an all in by us if we make it,he seems to be a loose passive call station.
Thinking through the hand ranges of both players i figured that at best we was around 50% ish to win if we go all in [this is before i put it through stove]
Two other options are fold or call.
I discount fold as there is a nice pot to win,and at the moment we most likely have the best hand.
So a 50% chance to triple up or call for 1800 more leaving us with 8500 chips and a situation where chump has a 4 to 1 chance of hitting a club on the turn,if he misses and we shove the turn to isolate utg+1 , if that works we dont triple up but we will increase our stack to 22575 chips..
If the chump calls us anyway on the turn,i feel more relaxed with a 70% edge than a 50% one,given the circumstances,the possible reads on the big blind i thought this as the best way to proceed.
If a club comes on the turn,we still have 8500 chips and plenty of time to chip up.
In my opinion this scenario with the 2 opponents involved together with the reads on them and a mtt ethos of trying to mix survival,aggression,patience,caution and chip accumulation is the best way to approach it..
Not the way i would play 33 but given Kinboshis situation what is the optimum play?
I do so hope i converted one person in the all in camp :) sometimes there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.
regards
noble